Boris - The Prime Minister

First thoughts on PMBoris, will he make a difference?


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I can just see her getting out there with her Marigolds on, cleaning up and showing the country how to do it. Her daily briefing would have included a daily lockdown recipe as well. The media wouldn't have dared challenge her for a vegan, gluten-free recipe though.
It'd have been complete carnage. Reporters handbagged left, right and centre. Peston invited to put his questions into English. Anyone interrupting the scientists given a sound handbagging for being rude and not letting the scientist finish. It'd have become ratings-leading TV, with social media full of 'Do you think Maggie will handbag Beth Rigby again? Or will they send someone else for her to beat up?'

And she'd have ended each briefing by reminding us that she'd been joining police patrols on a regular basis to help them with those ignoring the lockdown and had, up to that point, given a stern talking to x hundred lockdown violaters. She'd have have ensured that no-one dared go out lest they bump into her.

It doesn't bear thinking about...
 
I'm curious as to your source for that? Because it's a suspiciously convenient claim for those who froth at the brain about how the lockdown is an infringement of their civil liberties, as opposed to a reasonable public health initiative. And a very suspiciously convenient claim for any politician in government trying to shirk blame for incompetent crisis management: "it wasn't us, it was the press and the scientists who wanted a lockdown, they killed everybody".

When the numbers for "confirmed Covid-19" deaths are announced, is that "deaths where a test proved that Covid-19 was present" (i.e. in a hospital, with a positive test result)? Or is it "deaths where Covid-19 was listed as a factor on the death certificate" (say, in a care home, but where no test was available)? Because the difference is very important to your claim. Note that the death statistics only started to include "Covid-19 mentioned on death certificate, but no test carried out" from 28th April.


Otherwise, you're suggesting that over 30,000 people died in 12 weeks because they were shy about going to the doctor? A big claim like that should have a solid evidence base. It would be embarrassing to discover that the gap between excess deaths and declared Covid-19 deaths was largely down to people who died of Covid-19 at home, without a test.
Caveat emptor as usual...

In England and Wales, in the period up to 24 April 2020, 71% of the excess deaths were associated with COVID-19. In France the figure for the most recent available week was 92%. This gap suggests that France has been more comprehensive in recording COVID-19 deaths. Some of the excess deaths identified will not be directly due to COVID-19, but may be caused indirectly through pressure on the health care system, or people not accessing care when they need it.

Understanding excess mortality | The Health Foundation
 
I'm curious as to your source for that? Because it's a suspiciously convenient claim for those who froth at the brain about how the lockdown is an infringement of their civil liberties, as opposed to a reasonable public health initiative. And a very suspiciously convenient claim for any politician in government trying to shirk blame for incompetent crisis management: "it wasn't us, it was the press and the scientists who wanted a lockdown, they killed everybody".

When the numbers for "confirmed Covid-19" deaths are announced, is that "deaths where a test proved that Covid-19 was present" (i.e. in a hospital, with a positive test result)? Or is it "deaths where Covid-19 was listed as a factor on the death certificate" (say, in a care home, but where no test was available)? Because the difference is very important to your claim. Note that the death statistics only started to include "Covid-19 mentioned on death certificate, but no test carried out" from 28th April.


Otherwise, you're suggesting that over 30,000 people died in 12 weeks because they were shy about going to the doctor? A big claim like that should have a solid evidence base. It would be embarrassing to discover that the gap between excess deaths and declared Covid-19 deaths was largely down to people who died of Covid-19 at home, without a test.

[Edited to add: the official dead-and-tested-positive figure shown on the BBC is over 39,000, while the "excess deaths" figure is AIUI about 60,000. So "just over half of the excess deaths are due to lockdown" is a demonstrably incorrect statement]
I can’t add up (not bad for an engineer)! The correct figures are ~60k excess deaths and ~40k COVID related, so I should have stated “just over a third”. In any event, it’s irrelevant to my point; you cannot use the fact that the actual death rate is (roughly) aligned with what the model predicted to validate the model. There are countries with much death rates that didn’t lockdown or placed much lighter restrictions on their populations.

On your second point that the additional 20,000 could be people who died at home without tests, that further reinforces my point about the competence of government agencies, particularly PHE and it’s equivalents in the devolved administrations.

Back on thread, I don’t think Boris can be held responsible for PHEs dire performance. In fact, the opposite. Boris and his cabinet were quite clear about the need to sort out the incompetent qangocracy that delivers British governance. They were starting on a reform agenda before COVID hit.
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

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Seems to me that statistics are being used to twist and bring trouble on Boris. The report issued yesterday saying Government statistics were skewed to fit the agenda of proving lots of tests had been done appears to have been produced by someone who worked with many Labour Ministers when they were in power.

Plus, it seems to me that if you have no symptoms and die in a motorcycle accident, a post mortem test will show covid on your death certificate although it wasn't responsible for your death. That will make our stats look high compared to other nations, surely?
 
a post mortem test will show covid on your death certificate although it wasn't responsible for your death. That will make our stats look high compared to other nations, surely?
I’ve been saying this on various Covid threads for weeks now. This country is currently reporting almost 40,000 deaths from Covid19, whereas Germany is around a quarter of that. The difference being is that Germany only records a Covid death if the virus was the true cause of death, whereas we are recording deaths of everyone ‘with Covid‘, even if the main cause of death is another underlying medical condition.
This image has been doing the rounds and pretty much sums it up for me.
594D6290-C40D-4612-A0D9-D4B20F2CD4A4.jpeg
 
Seems to me that statistics are being used to twist and bring trouble on Boris. The report issued yesterday saying Government statistics were skewed to fit the agenda of proving lots of tests had been done appears to have been produced by someone who worked with many Labour Ministers when they were in power.

Plus, it seems to me that if you have no symptoms and die in a motorcycle accident, a post mortem test will show covid on your death certificate although it wasn't responsible for your death. That will make our stats look high compared to other nations, surely?
He was also The Private Secretary to Margaret Thatcher for 3 years, what’s your point?
 
Seems to me that statistics are being used to twist and bring trouble on Boris. The report issued yesterday saying Government statistics were skewed to fit the agenda of proving lots of tests had been done appears to have been produced by someone who worked with many Labour Ministers when they were in power.

Plus, it seems to me that if you have no symptoms and die in a motorcycle accident, a post mortem test will show covid on your death certificate although it wasn't responsible for your death. That will make our stats look high compared to other nations, surely?
Are you saying, that if someone died in a motorcycle accident, from injuries sustained during that, the death certificate would show COVID 19 as the cause of death?
 

Auld-Yin

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Are you saying, that if someone died in a motorcycle accident, from injuries sustained during that, the death certificate would show COVID 19 as the cause of death?
Yes! And I have given an example earlier. Anyone who died and has the cv-19 virus in their blood is counted as a Covid death.

The true statement is "number of people who died carrying the CV-19 virus" rather than number of people who died of CV-19.

I also contend this is not explored by the media as the last thing they want to see is a drastic reduction in numbers thus reducing the effect of the "gasp, horror" stories they have and are running.
 
Yes! And I have given an example earlier. Anyone who died and has the cv-19 virus in their blood is counted as a Vovid death.

The true statement is "number of people who died carrying the CV-19 virus" rather than number of people who died of CB-19.

I also contend this is not explored by the media as the last thing they want to see is a drastic reduction in numbers thus reducing the effect of the "gasp, horror" stories they have and are running.
That seems strange. However I will accept it. Why aren’t Ministers explaining this?

Stabbings and car accidents shown as COVID deaths, seems an easy thing for them to get across during a briefing.
 

Auld-Yin

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That seems strange. However I will accept it. Why aren’t Ministers explaining this?

Stabbings and car accidents shown as COVID deaths, seems an easy thing for them to get across during a briefing.
Probably, and this is purely my opinion you realise, is the PM and Ministers decided to report all deaths as they do otherwise our media, instead of assisting the government and thus the populace in understanding and combatting CV-19, would just accuse PMBJ of hiding deaths by CV. Don't you feel that would happen?
 
Probably, and this is purely my opinion you realise, is the PM and Ministers decided to report all deaths as they do otherwise our media, instead of assisting the government and thus the populace in understanding and combatting CV-19, would just accuse PMBJ of hiding deaths by CV. Don't you feel that would happen?
Any right minded person would accept that a death as a result of a car accident, stabbing or other obvious cause should be recorded as such and not CV 19.

A death certificate could also show that the person also had CV19 in their system as an aside.

Baring in mind, that 80% of people who have it, are unlikely to display any symptoms apparently.
 

Auld-Yin

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Any right minded person would accept that a death as a result of a car accident, stabbing or other obvious cause should be recorded as such and not CV 19.

A death certificate could also show that the person also had CV19 in their system as an aside.

Baring in mind, that 80% of people who have it, are unlikely to display any symptoms apparently.
Naivety run wild. You don't really believe that post, do you?
 

Auld-Yin

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Are Coroners recording traumatic injury deaths as CV19?
I don't know, are they? And are the figures given the Coroner's or the NHS? Get a grip!

Now stop going down your usual tangent tunnels when you don't have an argument or discussion to offer!
 
...I also contend this is not explored by the media as the last thing they want to see is a drastic reduction in numbers thus reducing the effect of the "gasp, horror" stories they have and are running.
It would also give the lie to their initial headline grabbing over reaction and cause fingers to be pointed their way, along with awkward questions directed at them.

Better they keep up the pretense that it's the end of the world and hope everyone forgets their part in hyping up this thing.
 
I don't know, are they? And are the figures given the Coroner's or the NHS? Get a grip!

Now stop going down your usual tangent tunnels when you don't have an argument or discussion to offer!
I responded to a post, that stated that motorcycle accidents are being recorded as CV19, that genuinely surprised me.

I was interested, you responded and have now had a little tantrum. Just don’t reply if you feel enraged by it.
 

Auld-Yin

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I responded to a post, that stated that motorcycle accidents are being recorded as CV19, that genuinely surprised me.

I was interested, you responded and have now had a little tantrum. Just don’t reply if you feel enraged by it.
No, you just started on your usual ****-around which is why I posted what I did. You can never accept anything which diverts from your train of thought. You don't work for some media outlet do you?
 
No, you just started on your usual ****-around which is why I posted what I did. You can never accept anything which diverts from your train of thought. You don't work for some media outlet do you?
I’m not being drawn into a pointless argument by you.
 

Auld-Yin

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Trans-sane

LE
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I responded to a post, that stated that motorcycle accidents are being recorded as CV19, that genuinely surprised me.

I was interested, you responded and have now had a little tantrum. Just don’t reply if you feel enraged by it.
I believe its down to the reportable diseases legislation. My cousin spun a dit about it to me a few years ago over a few beers. The gist was the spike in syphilis related deaths in the early 2000s was an artefact caused by the invention of Viagra (other pharmaceutical stiffeners are available, sometimes without prescription). Syphilis is a reportable disease and has been since reportable disease legislation was first written. Old folk in care homes were now enjoying the ability to play the casual sex game once again, often being widowed and surrounded by likeminded singles. All STIs apart from HIV spiked. Given the age and general physical condition of many of the participants, many of them died before proper diagnosis/treatment for their STI. So an 87 year old grandad with heart problems, COPD and emphysema had the cause of death as "syphilis" in quite a few cases*...












































*Which frankly deserves the epitaph of "Legend" in my books.
 

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