Boris - The Prime Minister

First thoughts on PMBoris, will he make a difference?


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Yes, I can accept that you may be right in this. Covid-19 is a notifiable disease.

But why would that be a bad thing or, for that matter, a good thing? A death certificate is just a statement of the perceived professional opinion of the doctor attending at time of death. This already takes place. The only alternative is a full PM in every circumstance. Even that could frequently be inconclusive.

I still don't see why this situation would be a problem for anybody.
It's a good thing if there is a consistent way of doing things. It's a bad thing if there's an inconsistent way of doing things.
 

rifleair

War Hero
Yes, I can accept that you may be right in this. Covid-19 is a notifiable disease.

But why would that be a bad thing or, for that matter, a good thing? A death certificate is just a statement of the perceived professional opinion of the doctor attending at time of death. This already takes place. The only alternative is a full PM in every circumstance. Even that could frequently be inconclusive.

I still don't see why this situation would be a problem for anybody.
The problem occurs when people compare the death rate between countries that put any possible reference to covid on the DC and countries that only put it on when there is a confirmed test result. Take a middle European country with a low death count that although it does report care home deaths,but doesn't actually test many of its elder population and concentrates it's testing on the younger population, then the results can look ' better' than the countries surrounding it.
None of these comparisons are useful and the true answer will not be known until several months after the end of this pandemic, however the media want to keep stirring the pot for their own agenda.
 
The problem occurs when people compare the death rate between countries that put any possible reference to covid on the DC and countries that only put it on when there is a confirmed test result. Take a middle European country with a low death count that although it does report care home deaths,but doesn't actually test many of its elder population and concentrates it's testing on the younger population, then the results can look ' better' than the countries surrounding it.
None of these comparisons are useful and the true answer will not be known until several months after the end of this pandemic, however the media want to keep stirring the pot for their own agenda.
I was under the impression that, in the light of differing national recording methods, 'excess mortality' figures were being used as a comparative benchmark.
 

rifleair

War Hero
I was under the impression that, in the light of differing national recording methods, 'excess mortality' figures were being used as a comparative benchmark.
Yes they will be, however they cannot be reliably composed until the end of the pandemic when all relevant information has been obtained.
Trying to assess what that figure is at the moment with just bits and bobs of the data is just whistling in the wind.
 

Auld-Yin

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I have been wary of the size of the Covid-19 deaths reported for some time. A friend of mine lost her 93 year old mother which was hard enough for the family with restricted numbers able to attend the funeral. However the cause of death was shown as "Frail and elderly" and "Pneumonia" issues (can't remember the exact phrase) but tagged on was Coronavirus. The family knew nothing of the last and when queried they were told their mother was moved out of the Royal Infirmary to the local hospital and when she left the RI she did not have CV-19, three days later when she died it was added to her death cert so had apparently caught it in the three days she was in the local hospital. I doubt very much if she actually died with CV-19 but then again, I am not a doctor, but neither do I see them as Gods who can't be challenged. I can say the family are not too happy with the death cert and are completely unsure how/why she actually died.
 

rifleair

War Hero
I have been wary of the size of the Covid-19 deaths reported for some time. A friend of mine lost her 93 year old mother which was hard enough for the family with restricted numbers able to attend the funeral. However the cause of death was shown as "Frail and elderly" and "Pneumonia" issues (can't remember the exact phrase) but tagged on was Coronavirus. The family knew nothing of the last and when queried they were told their mother was moved out of the Royal Infirmary to the local hospital and when she left the RI she did not have CV-19, three days later when she died it was added to her death cert so had apparently caught it in the three days she was in the local hospital. I doubt very much if she actually died with CV-19 but then again, I am not a doctor, but neither do I see them as Gods who can't be challenged. I can say the family are not too happy with the death cert and are completely unsure how/why she actually died.
The family has the right to question the findings on the certificate if they ask the coroners officer to discuss and review it before it's actually issued, might be worth them getting in touch.
 
2 of the families I referred to in my post tried that....it was going to be a very protracted process and, they said it was made to seem that unless foul play was suspected it wouldn't change anything.
 

Auld-Yin

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The family has the right to question the findings on the certificate if they ask the coroners officer to discuss and review it before it's actually issued, might be worth them getting in touch.
I doubt the family want to go through the added pain just for a statistic. Also, there is no Coroner system in Scotland.
 
The other challenge is that it will delay issue of the Death Cert and, you can't do anything to sort their affairs with that (as I have discovered).

On a related note, you don't get even a single copy of the Death Certificate without paying £11 for each one, and every organisation wants an original!
 
There is some risk of this going round in circles. It's very much the point I was making.

Is it appropriate that a complex tracing system dealing with a deadly public health problem, resulting in potentially negative consequences for some (quarantining), should rely solely on the goodwill and voluntary co-operation of the public for its successful implementation?

Either it is a vital and necessary tactic in the control of the virus, the protection of the public and the return to normal life or else it is not.

If it is not, then the whole idea should be abandoned and people left alone.

If it is vital and necessary, then it should not be left to the whim of the individual. If it needs proper legislation, then so be it.

Even wearing a seatbelt in a car is not advisory. It's all policing by consent.
No, it's a law- that has nothing to do with policing by consent. As I see it the only thing that can be considered an issue is distancing which is 2m. But it's currently only advice, the police being given DISCRETION over that issue acting on behalf of the NHS and PHE. The point that is being avoided here is the Press have not come under any kind of pressure when they ignored distancing to get the story that everyone knows about and the underlying issue is an admittedly biased Press trying to undermine the elected Government of this country because they don't like it. So if wer'e going to hound Cummings then lets hound Kinnock et al with equanimity and get them all to go. I'm surprised Cummings has been directed to take the BBC to task over the issue, I mean Campbell did with the results we have now.
 

Auld-Yin

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The other challenge is that it will delay issue of the Death Cert and, you can't do anything to sort their affairs with that (as I have discovered).

On a related note, you don't get even a single copy of the Death Certificate without paying £11 for each one, and every organisation wants an original!
When I registered my brother's death on the Isle of Wight, I was offered the death cert free with 10 copies if I wanted them for £10 - the lady explained that they would be asked for. She was very helpful through the whole process.
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
I doubt the family want to go through the added pain just for a statistic. Also, there is no Coroner system in Scotland.
So what do you have up there in lieu? Gen question as I didn't realise there were no coroners in Scotland.
 

Auld-Yin

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So what do you have up there in lieu? Gen question as I didn't realise there were no coroners in Scotland.
The Procurator Fiscal deals with these issues.
 

rifleair

War Hero
O
I doubt the family want to go through the added pain just for a statistic. Also, there is no Coroner system in Scotland.
Oh, fair enough!
 
When I registered my brother's death on the Isle of Wight, I was offered the death cert free with 10 copies if I wanted them for £10 - the lady explained that they would be asked for. She was very helpful through the whole process.
Ditto when I registered my father’s death in Bridgend in 2018.
There had to be a ‘rubber stamp’ Coroner’s inquest as he had had an accident at home, fallen and fractured the odontoid peg: hospitalised and subsequently died 7 weeks later. Actual CoD was down as pneumonia.
One thing that interested me was when I took my pen out to sign the forms, the Registrar practically leaped over the desk.
‘No, no, no. You must use my pen with the issue ink. All documents signed here MUST be signed with that ink.’
Fair enough.
Having worked in the anti-counterfeit field for years, it led me to wonder whether the ink had been bio-coded, as a means of verification should it be required.
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
Ditto when I registered my father’s death in Bridgend in 2018.
There had to be a ‘rubber stamp’ Coroner’s inquest as he had had an accident at home, fallen and fractured the odontoid peg: hospitalised and subsequently died 7 weeks later. Actual CoD was down as pneumonia.
One thing that interested me was when I took my pen out to sign the forms, the Registrar practically leaped over the desk.
‘No, no, no. You must use my pen with the issue ink. All documents signed here MUST be signed with that ink.’
Fair enough.
Having worked in the anti-counterfeit field for years, it led me to wonder whether the ink had been bio-coded, as a means of verification should it be required.
Same ink in churches for Marriage Certificates. It's registry ink and darkens with age rather than fading.
 
Here is something I did not know until yesterday and an excellent chat with a Whitehall chum....

Much is now explained (or eggsplained)

Very interesting the bio and clearly a man on the inside of the media bubble, that doesn't panic at a headline... Its good to know that the PM is surrounding himself with lateral thinkers and bodes well for his future direction.
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Ditto when I registered my father’s death in Bridgend in 2018.
There had to be a ‘rubber stamp’ Coroner’s inquest as he had had an accident at home, fallen and fractured the odontoid peg: hospitalised and subsequently died 7 weeks later. Actual CoD was down as pneumonia.
One thing that interested me was when I took my pen out to sign the forms, the Registrar practically leaped over the desk.
‘No, no, no. You must use my pen with the issue ink. All documents signed here MUST be signed with that ink.’
Fair enough.
Having worked in the anti-counterfeit field for years, it led me to wonder whether the ink had been bio-coded, as a means of verification should it be required.
I suspect more it was a Registrar on a power trip, or something more mundane like the correct shade of ink for microfiche etc.
 

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