Boris - The Prime Minister

First thoughts on PMBoris, will he make a difference?


  • Total voters
    694
I don't have a problem with an evidence-based approach. But I do have a problem with people who believe themselves to be better interpreters of evidence because they're can view the evidence retrospectively as blindingly obvious course to follow.

Anyone with a scintilla of understanding about viruses knows that when it jumps from animal to human it does not behave the way covid behaves and usually you have time stretching over several years. The Government went from nought to a 100 in a matter of months and mistakes were inevitable.

The problem with you, is you've bought the Public Health argument that we need to doomsday prep for every eventuality and force people to lose weight, stop eating meat and keep fit, wear a mask and stay in your homes forever and generally destroy freedom in the pursuit of a chimera that most likely did come from a wuhan lab and was engineered to jump humans to account for its sudden spread.
I have a Masters worth of 'viral knowledge'. But even my Mum knows that 'influenza' is different every year, if not more. And that's just one.
Edit: I have much better things to do than start digging stuff out, so disagree all you like. Not entirely sure you'd accept anything anyway...whatabout
 
Last edited:
Really? I'd suggest that evolutionary pressure does a much better job, given the emergence of B and D variants.


A Doctor acquaintance with friends/relatives in Hong Kong commented that there were rumours around Christmas 2019 that there was another illness spreading in the PRC. While that may be anecdata, I don't expect that the realistic start date was more than a few weeks, maybe a month or so, prior to that.
Lie 1. SARs - China lied for months but were able to contain the lie somewhat until SARs learned better to spread. But China came clean, before that exponential growth took off and the world was able to contain the cases.
Lie 2. Covid - China followed the same lying path, but Covid reacted far quicker and outran the CCP propaganda.

Why was Covid so quick to spread from unknown source, to exponential growth ? The working assumption is somebody gave it a leg up and that leads back to that lab.

In Conclusion:-
You have in your two hands proof that china lies. So why not take a fresh look at the Biggest Lie ?
 
At least we have Parliamentary Sovereignty.


Wrong sort of control to take back there.

That's "accountability", not "control".

Meanwhile entry to our unelected Lords continues to be bought or given to Russians.

"Trebles all around" as Private Eye puts it.
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
Blooming heck I bet this made Boris choke on his cornflakes this morning.


Really? Do you think he actually cares?

I don't think he cares if everything burns whilst and when he walks out the door of No 10.

It'll be "lets take this off-line", thumbs up and out the door?
 
You show me, in the CYGNUS recommendations, the requirement to "stockpile PPE". The findings talk about "emergency responders" not everyone down to the tea lady.
I'm not saying it was identified by CYGNUS; hard to get a CPX to identify logistic consumption-rate problems. What I am saying is that by 2017 a pandemic was a clearly identified risk, with a clearly identified impact. Not a "we couldn't have expected it", but instead a "this is coming, we have to prepare".

The Number One Risk was declared to be "pandemic flu", the declared scenario is "50% of population affected, hundreds of thousands dying, NHS overloaded", and there's an identified headline need to provide PPE to emergency first responders; so there's a clear idea of the scale of initial stocks required. Then, when it comes to an actual pandemic, with hundreds of thousands dying, the entire country affected, and NHS running red-hot: we find that lip-service had been paid to preparation.

Surely you're not going to claim that Emergency Responders were properly equipped with PPE? Because it would be a false statement.

What would you have said to someone in 1939, if the declaration of war had revealed that unlike history, the there was no stockpile of any ammunition? "...the procurement, storage, and subsequent distribution of such stocks is the responsibility of the Ministry of Supply. Not the Government.". What would you say if their approach to buying more ammunition was to give the contracts to Party members and mates, so they can take a nice cut as middlemen to an ammunition factory on the other side of the world?

If a Government declares that its only option is to cut budgets, it's hardly a surprise that stockpiles are the things to suffer. It's the job of Ministers to ask things like "so... how are we doing on the risks to the nation?", not drop the ball and then blame everyone else. Let's be honest, the main focus of the current Government since 2016 was their short-term survival in politics (Brexit, who's the next PM, who's the next PM again, will I get that nice Cabinet job) and not the longer-term survival of the nation. It's an explanation, not an excuse.
 
Last edited:
Why was Covid so quick to spread from unknown source, to exponential growth ? The working assumption is somebody gave it a leg up and that leads back to that lab.

No, the "working assumption" is not that "someone gave it a leg up" - because "exponential growth" is what epidemics do. Especially when no-one knows that there's an epidemic; and that while incubation is 3-5 days, it's 5-8 days before those cases get to the point of requiring hospitalisation. It was easier to spot SARS/MERS because they hit harder/faster, and killed a much higher percentage of their victims.

Do you believe in evolution? Or are you someone who insists that it can't have "just happened", someone must have planned it and controlled it?
 
No, the "working assumption" is not that "someone gave it a leg up" - because "exponential growth" is what epidemics do. Especially when no-one knows that there's an epidemic; and that while incubation is 3-5 days, it's 5-8 days before those cases get to the point of requiring hospitalisation. It was easier to spot SARS/MERS because they hit harder/faster, and killed a much higher percentage of their victims.

Do you believe in evolution? Or are you someone who insists that it can't have "just happened", someone must have planned it and controlled it?
Your missing the lull period between the first recognized infection and the virus learning to jump to another. Generally a virus from a cave or animal would infect one person at a time in very very close contact. That can take a season, then the virus can spread exponentially after its bounced across enough humans.

Covid either was around in September 2019 in a latency period, or it did just infect exponentially in December/January 2020 and if that is the case you have prima facie proof from the timeline that something is not right about this virus.
 
Covid either was around in September 2019 in a latency period, or it did just infect exponentially in December/January 2020 and if that is the case you have prima facie proof from the timeline that something is not right about this virus.

Of course it was around in September 2019 - but no-one had spotted it yet. Remember the high rates of asymptomatic infection (wife and youngest were both "it's a bit like a head cold", I was in bed with a 39C fever for a week), and consider that it might have mutated along the way - much like A and D variants...
 
Of course it was around in September 2019 - but no-one had spotted it yet. Remember the high rates of asymptomatic infection (wife and youngest were both "it's a bit like a head cold", I was in bed with a 39C fever for a week), and consider that it might have mutated along the way - much like A and D variants...
That's the new cover story and its a good one because people want to accept that china lied about the timeline to avoid the origin story. To my eyes, the Chinese Government panicked and it reminded me so much of the Chernobyl series.

So my working hypothesis hasn't changed an inch since last summer i.e. The local party and lab were desperately trying to cover their arrses after the lab leak. Then the government came in and dealt with the problem and have probably being planting stories counter to its own narrative to try and fool the gullible west.
 

Truxx

LE
I'm not saying it was identified by CYGNUS; hard to get a CPX to identify logistic consumption-rate problems. What I am saying is that by 2017 a pandemic was a clearly identified risk, with a clearly identified impact. Not a "we couldn't have expected it", but instead a "this is coming, we have to prepare".

The Number One Risk was declared to be "pandemic flu", the declared scenario is "50% of population affected, hundreds of thousands dying, NHS overloaded", and there's an identified headline need to provide PPE to emergency first responders; so there's a clear idea of the scale of initial stocks required. Then, when it comes to an actual pandemic, with hundreds of thousands dying, the entire country affected, and NHS running red-hot: we find that lip-service had been paid to preparation.

Surely you're not going to claim that Emergency Responders were properly equipped with PPE? Because it would be a false statement.

What would you have said to someone in 1939, if the declaration of war had revealed that unlike history, the there was no stockpile of any ammunition? "...the procurement, storage, and subsequent distribution of such stocks is the responsibility of the Ministry of Supply. Not the Government.". What would you say if their approach to buying more ammunition was to give the contracts to Party members and mates, so they can take a nice cut as middlemen to an ammunition factory on the other side of the world?

If a Government declares that its only option is to cut budgets, it's hardly a surprise that stockpiles are the things to suffer. It's the job of Ministers to ask things like "so... how are we doing on the risks to the nation?", not drop the ball and then blame everyone else. Let's be honest, the main focus of the current Government since 2016 was their short-term survival in politics (Brexit, who's the next PM, who's the next PM again, will I get that nice Cabinet job) and not the longer-term survival of the nation. It's an explanation, not an excuse.
You seem to be swerving away from your original assertions.

By the way, do you have any evidence (whatsoever) that emergency responders did not have enough PPE. Here's a clue, not having as much as you would like is not the same as not having enough.

In addition there is an entire NHS supply system in place. If there was a shortfall then regardless of the obfuscation about ministers, why no criticism of the management there?

Also I would be interested in the budget cuts that caused the NHS to prioritise the what might happen over the what is happening (fight the fight you are in).

The risk was that there could be a pandemic. The precise nature of that pandemic, and what it would need, was impossible to determine until it arrived. Well, actually after it had became well established.
 
By the time a pandemic had been declared, PPE was already in very short supply - certainly throughout Europe.
My daughter works in the logistics department of a large (at the time multi-national) firm of industrial ironmongers, for want of a better term, that is also open to the general public.
One day in Jan 2020, as English mother tongue, she was asked to deal with a couple of Chinese drop-ins, whose only foreign tongue was English.
They cleaned the shop out of PPE completely, leaving none for the tradesmen who normally required masks, gloves, suits etc. All paid for by Chinese-issued credit card, and requested to be air shipped to China.
This was not an isolated event as her boss discovered all the shops in the chain had been similarly hit and, talking around other companies, the phenomenon had been repeated with them, too.
Their usual suppliers, predominantly in Germany, were out of stock, too, and having severe difficulty getting replen.
 
That's the new cover story and its a good one because people want to accept that china lied about the timeline to avoid the origin story. To my eyes, the Chinese Government panicked and it reminded me so much of the Chernobyl series.

So my working hypothesis hasn't changed an inch since last summer i.e. The local party and lab were desperately trying to cover their arrses after the lab leak. Then the government came in and dealt with the problem and have probably being planting stories counter to its own narrative to try and fool the gullible west.

Do you accept that COVID can be explained without human intervention, or are you completely convinced that there is no possible alternative to "lab leak plus coverup"?

Do you accept that rather more-qualified-than-you virologists and epidemiologists aren't making such assertions with such certainty?

Do you have an explanation as to why all the credible subject-matter experts say one thing, while you say another?
 
You seem to be swerving away from your original assertions.

By the way, do you have any evidence (whatsoever) that emergency responders did not have enough PPE. Here's a clue, not having as much as you would like is not the same as not having enough.
Unsurprisingly, the official NHS line (link) at the time was that "things were short, people had to make do and mend" but carefully avoids claiming "we never ran out". Cummings' comment is:

Hancock and No10 are creating a new version of reality in which: ‘there was no shortage of PPE’ and on 11 April Hancock removed procurement restrictions imposed by HMT. The reality… DHSC failed to plan for PPE demand and their procurement operation collapsed. They rejected chances to buy things because of sticking to the old rules. No10 insisted on removing these rules and HMT did remove their standard rules in March. Hancock told us PPE was ‘all under control’ in the week of 23 March. This meant further weeks were wasted instead of used to solve the problems. Hancock then sought to blame Simon Stevens, the Chancellor and the Cabinet Office for the PPE disaster in April. The Cabinet Secretary told the PM’s office that Hancock’s claims were false. The lack of PPE killed NHS and care home staff in March-May.

In addition there is an entire NHS supply system in place. If there was a shortfall then regardless of the obfuscation about ministers, why no criticism of the management there?
Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of blame to go around - see Cummings' example of civil servants who couldn't think past "but this is how we do it normally".

Also I would be interested in the budget cuts that caused the NHS to prioritise the what might happen over the what is happening (fight the fight you are in).

The risk was that there could be a pandemic. The precise nature of that pandemic, and what it would need, was impossible to determine until it arrived. Well, actually after it had became well established.

I disagree. As linked above, the "precise nature" of what to plan for was very clearly stated - it was for a pandemic airborne virus that affected 50% of the UK population, and likely fatal for hundreds of thousands of people. Hence, a requirement for suitable PPE. Incompetence meant that it wasn't there when needed.

The fact that the top civil servants and responsible politicians failed to prepare effectively for the top-ranked, top-probability risk to the UK? That's what doesn't get an excuse.
 
Do you have an explanation as to why all the credible subject-matter experts say one thing, while you say another?

Even the subject matter experts are not banging the same drum

Chan was one of 18 scientists who published a letter in the journal Science last month calling for a more in-depth investigation into the virus's origin that takes into account theories about both natural occurrence and laboratory spillovers. The letter helped kick-start a new round of calls to investigate the "lab leak hypothesis," including demands from President Joe Biden and several leading scientists.


Some day we might get an answer ( although I doubt it )
 
Do you accept that COVID can be explained without human intervention, or are you completely convinced that there is no possible alternative to "lab leak plus coverup"?

Do you accept that rather more-qualified-than-you virologists and epidemiologists aren't making such assertions with such certainty?

Do you have an explanation as to why all the credible subject-matter experts say one thing, while you say another?
As we don't have the full picture everyone's viewpoint is just a hypothesis and I'm giving you my view and had no idea that I am supposed to follow the UK Governments view that its hypothesis is any better than mine.

As to the SMEs and reasons for a cover-up. The gain of research funding by the wildlife trust/ecoalliance puts some of them in the dock. Others are terrified of a reaction to science if science created this problem and of course the politicians have one eye on public opinion and are desperate to avoid them pushing governments towards a new cold war.
 

Truxx

LE
Unsurprisingly, the official NHS line (link) at the time was that "things were short, people had to make do and mend" but carefully avoids claiming "we never ran out". Cummings' comment is:

Hancock and No10 are creating a new version of reality in which: ‘there was no shortage of PPE’ and on 11 April Hancock removed procurement restrictions imposed by HMT. The reality… DHSC failed to plan for PPE demand and their procurement operation collapsed. They rejected chances to buy things because of sticking to the old rules. No10 insisted on removing these rules and HMT did remove their standard rules in March. Hancock told us PPE was ‘all under control’ in the week of 23 March. This meant further weeks were wasted instead of used to solve the problems. Hancock then sought to blame Simon Stevens, the Chancellor and the Cabinet Office for the PPE disaster in April. The Cabinet Secretary told the PM’s office that Hancock’s claims were false. The lack of PPE killed NHS and care home staff in March-May.


Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of blame to go around - see Cummings' example of civil servants who couldn't think past "but this is how we do it normally".



I disagree. As linked above, the "precise nature" of what to plan for was very clearly stated - it was for a pandemic airborne virus that affected 50% of the UK population, and likely fatal for hundreds of thousands of people. Hence, a requirement for suitable PPE. Incompetence meant that it wasn't there when needed.

The fact that the top civil servants and responsible politicians failed to prepare effectively for the top-ranked, top-probability risk to the UK? That's what doesn't get an excuse.
You are putting a lot of faith in Cummings version of events
 
I'm open to the view that the Government left the borders open on purpose on the basis that the Indian variant was already here. So instead of a few 10s having it a month ago and a likely spike occurring in September, we left the door open longer and in the 100s we had a spike in June which is a whole lot easier to control in the sunshine.
How many millions of people flew in and out of the UK unchecked when we were all forced into lockdown. How many European workers were imported to work on farms in the UK while the rest of us were told to stop working.

It's a joke but not a funny one, then you have the border "farce" ferrying thousands of illegal migrants into the country etc.

I'm just stating facts here - do your own thinking on this.
 

Latest Threads

Top