Boris - The Prime Minister

First thoughts on PMBoris, will he make a difference?


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Well said Lord Frost. I hope Boris is paying attention.

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Lord Frost's Anti-Big State Rallying Cry
 
You have no heart and are thus an individual who deserves pity and at the same time scorn for being a nutless fu$k who is afraid of his own shadow.
I'm less afraid of my shadow than you are. I manage to get around without needing guns, in parts of cities you would literally shit yourself in.
 

Truxx

LE
You've got a problem with evidence-based decision-making? What's the alternative - policy should be made according to "the will of the public" (presumably whatever someone's preferred newspaper's owner thinks it should be)?
  • One mistake was the decision to make space by clearing hospital wards of elderly patients, by sending them to care homes, but without testing them first. That spread the virus among those who could least withstand it; nothing "scientific evidence" there at all.
  • Then, there was the "ignore the evidence of Exercise CYGNUS and ignore any strategic stockpile of PPE" - after all, a pandemic was the number-one entry on the National Risk Register for several years. The exact opposite of "scientific evidence" there.
The PM's approach seems to be "put off any decision, while making populist noises" - it does have the advantage that fairly soon there's only two options left, but the disadvantage that you've missed your chances to choose better ones.
On the care homes, testing was not, at that time, widespread. What there was though, was detailed policy directing barrier nursing and isolation protocols. Whilst not widely publicised, those care homes that instantly adopted these protocols, did well. The place where my auntie lived, and she was in and out of Papworth like a yo yo, still has not had any cases of Covid, let alone deaths. So the testing isa red herring. The real issue here is penny pinching care home providers adopting slack drills.

The findings of CYGNUS were acted upon. Plenty about that on the Govt website. Stockpiling of PPE was not necessarily one of the specific findings. Remember the ex looked at a general health threat. It could have been everyone getting the shits, at which point warehouses of facemasks would be of little use (as facemasks anyway)

So you need to be really careful lest you start to parrot myth as fact.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
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Well said Lord Frost. I hope Boris is paying attention.

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Lord Frost's Anti-Big State Rallying Cry
There is, of course, the chance that senior ministers such as Frost and Mogg are making these statements to lead us into the next stage of the Covid outbreak, which is to return to normal and to deal with and treat new cases as they come up in the same way that flu is dealt with.

Both these guys are fairly loyal Johnson-ites so behind the scenes comments are not really to be expected, unless as a coordinated effort.
 
There is, of course, the chance that senior ministers such as Frost and Mogg are making these statements to lead us into the next stage of the Covid outbreak, which is to return to normal and to deal with and treat new cases as they come up in the same way that flu is dealt with.

Both these guys are fairly loyal Johnson-ites so behind the scenes comments are not really to be expected, unless as a coordinated effort.
Yes, it's no act of rebellion. It's a genuine concern.
 
One of my sons is a consultant anaesthetist.He hasn’t spoken to a conscious patient for 12 months or more. He says this disease is utterly horrible and he wouldn’t wish it on anyone as it is a truly dreadful way to die. Do I go with his experience or trust to Snowy & Steamboat’s well thought out and well presented counter arguments? In truth, I’m torn……..
 
One of my sons is a consultant anaesthetist.He hasn’t spoken to a conscious patient for 12 months or more. He says this disease is utterly horrible and he wouldn’t wish it on anyone as it is a truly dreadful way to die. Do I go with his experience or trust to Snowy & Steamboat’s well thought out and well presented counter arguments? In truth, I’m torn……..
Well we can't all be laid back and cut from the same cloth.
 
So the testing is a red herring. The real issue here is penny pinching care home providers adopting slack drills.
Disagree - because the PPE shortages didn't just affect private care homes, they affected hospitals too... and even Boris disagreed (link) with Hancock's claims about testing (link), if you believe Cummings.

The findings of CYGNUS were acted upon. Plenty about that on the Govt website. Stockpiling of PPE was not necessarily one of the specific findings. Remember the ex looked at a general health threat. It could have been everyone getting the shits, at which point warehouses of facemasks would be of little use (as facemasks anyway)
Disagree - based on at the 2017 National Risk Register (link)... (after all, CYGNUS was 2016, so it will incorporate those findings you insist were acted upon). Given that the highest likelihood / most severe impact risk was "Pandemic Influenza", as for previous years, are you sure that those PPE stocks weren't identified as necessary? And are you going to insist that they were sufficiently stocked to cover the initial phases of a widespread pandemic?

Page 34: "It is difficult to forecast the spread and impact of a new flu strain or disease until it starts circulating. However, consequences may include:
•for pandemic flu: up to 50% of the UK population experiencing symptoms, potentially leading to between 20,000 and 750,000 fatalities and high levels of absence from work.
"

Page 35: "Response
• Detection-specialist epidemiology and microbiology capabilities exist within the UK to identify, characterise and respond to infectious diseases.
• Antivirals -the Government stockpiles enough antiviral medicines to help treat people showing symptoms during a flu pandemic. Antivirals can help treat flu symptoms but are not a cure.
• Vaccines -vaccines will be developed as soon as possible once new flu strains are identified. This will take at least four to six months after a pandemic begins.
Personal protective equipment - emergency responders have personal protective equipment for severe pandemics and infectious diseases. There are also protocols in place for infection control both before and during an incident.
 
One of my sons is a consultant anaesthetist.He hasn’t spoken to a conscious patient for 12 months or more. He says this disease is utterly horrible and he wouldn’t wish it on anyone as it is a truly dreadful way to die. Do I go with his experience or trust to Snowy & Steamboat’s well thought out and well presented counter arguments? In truth, I’m torn……..
Pneumonia is awful.
 

Mbongwe

Old-Salt
In terms of appeal to the public, yes. Cummings is fizzingly clever IMO. I actually admire him.
I've never seen any evidence to indicate this, it's more that he's Joe Public's idea of what a boffin / policy wonk looks like.
 

Truxx

LE
Disagree - because the PPE shortages didn't just affect private care homes, they affected hospitals too... and even Boris disagreed (link) with Hancock's claims about testing (link), if you believe Cummings.


Disagree - based on at the 2017 National Risk Register (link)... (after all, CYGNUS was 2016, so it will incorporate those findings you insist were acted upon). Given that the highest likelihood / most severe impact risk was "Pandemic Influenza", as for previous years, are you sure that those PPE stocks weren't identified as necessary? And are you going to insist that they were sufficiently stocked to cover the initial phases of a widespread pandemic?

Page 34: "It is difficult to forecast the spread and impact of a new flu strain or disease until it starts circulating. However, consequences may include:
•for pandemic flu: up to 50% of the UK population experiencing symptoms, potentially leading to between 20,000 and 750,000 fatalities and high levels of absence from work.
"

Page 35: "Response
• Detection-specialist epidemiology and microbiology capabilities exist within the UK to identify, characterise and respond to infectious diseases.
• Antivirals -the Government stockpiles enough antiviral medicines to help treat people showing symptoms during a flu pandemic. Antivirals can help treat flu symptoms but are not a cure.
• Vaccines -vaccines will be developed as soon as possible once new flu strains are identified. This will take at least four to six months after a pandemic begins.
Personal protective equipment - emergency responders have personal protective equipment for severe pandemics and infectious diseases. There are also protocols in place for infection control both before and during an incident.
You show me, in the CYGNUS recommendations, the requirement to "stockpile PPE". The findings talk about "emergency responders" not everyone down to the tea lady.

And I have already pointed out the "protocols in place for infection control"

Even if it were implicit that everyone (including the tea lady) should all be in NBC State 1 (it isnt), the procurement, storage and subsequent distribution of such stocks is (as is laid down on the front page of their website) the responsibility of NHS Supply. Go read it.

Not the Government. Not even the department of state.
 
I don't have a problem with an evidence-based approach. But I do have a problem with people who believe themselves to be better interpreters of evidence because they're can view the evidence retrospectively as blindingly obvious course to follow.

Anyone with a scintilla of understanding about viruses knows that when it jumps from animal to human it does not behave the way covid behaves and usually you have time stretching over several years. The Government went from nought to a 100 in a matter of months and mistakes were inevitable.

The problem with you, is you've bought the Public Health argument that we need to doomsday prep for every eventuality and force people to lose weight, stop eating meat and keep fit, wear a mask and stay in your homes forever and generally destroy freedom in the pursuit of a chimera that most likely did come from a wuhan lab and was engineered to jump humans to account for its sudden spread.
I have a Masters worth of 'viral knowledge'. But even my Mum knows that 'influenza' is different every year, if not more. And that's just one.
Edit: I have much better things to do than start digging stuff out, so disagree all you like. Not entirely sure you'd accept anything anyway...whatabout
 
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Really? I'd suggest that evolutionary pressure does a much better job, given the emergence of B and D variants.


A Doctor acquaintance with friends/relatives in Hong Kong commented that there were rumours around Christmas 2019 that there was another illness spreading in the PRC. While that may be anecdata, I don't expect that the realistic start date was more than a few weeks, maybe a month or so, prior to that.
Lie 1. SARs - China lied for months but were able to contain the lie somewhat until SARs learned better to spread. But China came clean, before that exponential growth took off and the world was able to contain the cases.
Lie 2. Covid - China followed the same lying path, but Covid reacted far quicker and outran the CCP propaganda.

Why was Covid so quick to spread from unknown source, to exponential growth ? The working assumption is somebody gave it a leg up and that leads back to that lab.

In Conclusion:-
You have in your two hands proof that china lies. So why not take a fresh look at the Biggest Lie ?
 
At least we have Parliamentary Sovereignty.


Wrong sort of control to take back there.

That's "accountability", not "control".

Meanwhile entry to our unelected Lords continues to be bought or given to Russians.

"Trebles all around" as Private Eye puts it.
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer

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