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Boris - The Prime Minister

First thoughts on PMBoris, will he make a difference?


  • Total voters
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Thats fairly much excuses spoken by people who are slow to change. Other countries are making changes, while the UK thinks up any old bollocks for not doing anything.
The internet didnt exist 30 years ago, mobile phone use was for rich *******, satellite/cable TV was in its infancy.
Today most people have at least 2 of those things, even 10 year olds have their own phones using wifi to watch Netflix. If you told people 30 years ago that you would be watching films on your phone using radio waves from a small box in your house you would have thought they were on drugs, yet it happened.
I agree, people are slow to change. Some people are comfortable in the technical space they inhabit and sometimes the pace of change is too quick for some, they can't keep up. In the workplace many people are resistant to change which is why companies bring in change management 'experts'. Sometimes change is made for the sake of. It happened at my last place of employment

However, what I am not doing is making excuses, I am highlighting some the practical difficulties that need to be overcome before electric vehicles can become mainstream. There needs to be major national infrastructure investment and it's going to cost one hell of a lot of money and take a very long time. After this Covid issue is put to bed the government will need to refill the coffers and very many individuals are going to be poorer for some time to come. I can't see there being a great deal of money available and we've already seen the government getting slagged off after proposing investment for the armed forces.

Major infrastructure projects always seem to suffer delays and cost overruns and end up massively over-budget. I've already given you HS2 which was instigated c2009 and construction has only just started. The initial cost estimate for the project was about £31 billion and has doubled at least since then. Maybe even to more than £100 billion. It's not due to be completed until 2035 but you can guarantee that it will take longer. Same with Crossrail. That project was approved in 2007, construction began in 2009 and it was supposed to have been completed two years ago. It's now not expected to be completed until 2023. It had a planned budget of nearly £15 billion and is currently expected to cost somewhere close to £19bn and that cost will surely increase. I could probably dig around and find other examples but I'm not inclined to and I'm sure you get my point.

So I come back to the tens of thousands of residential streets throughout the land where it is not practicable to run charging cables across the footpaths. If it's going to take 15 years or more to build a single railway line to the North, if it's going to take 14 years to build a railway line across London, how long, realistically, is it going to take to put in place the infrastructure to allow people to charge their cars outside their homes where they don't have the luxury of off road parking? And at what cost and to whom? Maybe that's the point. Perhaps that's the intention - to inconvenience and price people out of their cars, to leave the roads more freely available for the well-off and elite.

I don't disagree with your other points either. Fair enough the internet didn't exist but it didn't replace anything else. As for mobile phones, as they were starting to become more popular nobody turned round and said "in a few years we're going to ban dedicated landlines". Same with watching films on phones. Televisions haven't been banned. Video players didn't die out because the were banned, they died out because of emerging technologies, cheaper, higher quality alternatives and consumer choice. This is what will really drive the replacement for ICE vehicles.
 
It will never happen by 2030, the date will be extended.
Drove down to Cornwall with friends in September, 380 miles.
Imagine stopping halfway, queueing up for hours to use a charger & then more hours to charge the car.
When technology gets to a 400 mile range, half an hour to fully recharge & the battery lasts at least ten years, I might be interested.
But I can see me buying a new petrol car in 2029 & running it into the ground because IMO, the technology still won't be there.
Battery range needs to be on a par with modern diesel engines (with all the electricals running) and recharging times to maximum battery capacity similar to the amount of time it takes to fill a fuel tank. There wouldn't be any need to charge at home overnight then. Battery life needs to last for the life of the vehicle. If all that can be achieved I can see a massive buy-in to the idea. I don't know if there is already a common global standard regarding charging plugs and sockets but there needs to be so that people don't need to cart their own power cable around and can also continue to take their cars abroad and use all charging points anywhere. That could be a problem in less developed countries. There needs to be an evolution, not a revolution, so I also doubt it will happen by 2030.

Another issue is generation capacity. To get enough juice in the grid to charge all these millions of new vehicles is going to take a hell of a lot more solar and wind farms. That's still a requirement for major infrastructure projects. Don't forget the NIMBYs and 'save the newt' brigade will have their say.

Given the propensity for hostile states to engage in cyber attacks against our major institutions there needs to be the ability to withstand any cyber attack on our power generation and distribution networks. Certain countries would like nothing more than to bring our roads network to a grinding halt because people can't charge their cars, buses and lorries.
 
While I agree with your sentiment re transparency, I very much doubt you would accept anything other than Boris Grrr in any investigation.

I have no doubt that you blame the anti Semitism in the Labour Party on Boris. :)
Nah - that's all the fault of the Jews.
 
Driving to a petrol station if its not on your direct journey also takes time, plus queuing if its busy, most electric car owners charge up at night on their own driveway.
What about the tens of thousands of people who don't have that as an option as has already been pointed out?
 
What about the tens of thousands of people who don't have that as an option as has already been pointed out?
They charge at work or in public car parks, like they do in all the other countries where people don't have drive ways but seem to just get on with it.
 
His view too.

The introduction of things like LEZ have already had quite an impact. This is just the same. DHL have been dabbling with compressed natural gas for instance. Are there not some trials hydrogen fuel cell vehicles kicking about too? Interesting how the current debate centres around electric vehicles rather than "not petrol or diesel"

Lots of alternatives like this:



It's a fight I'm losing to be honest Truxx

My boss currently wants me to look in to restricting new buy vans to a three year life and when the warranty expires they get disposed of.
My ethos has always been maximise vehicle life but its becoming quite a lonely position to take.
 
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What countries? The ones with several million electric cars?

Netherlands, Norway, Iceland etc, Even Ireland is getting in on it.
Funnily enough companies like making money so if there is a demand companies will provide just like they do for everything else.
 
Battery range needs to be on a par with modern diesel engines (with all the electricals running) and recharging times to maximum battery capacity similar to the amount of time it takes to fill a fuel tank.

This is the kind of thinking that hold back progress, Tesla have fast chargers that take 30 minute for about an 80%, their owners have adapted their habits to having a break on the motorways, piss, coffee, stretch your legs while fast charging, it takes a while to get use to because people normally fill up and **** off. But once they get used to it, they dont seem to mind.
 
Given the propensity for hostile states to engage in cyber attacks against our major institutions there needs to be the ability to withstand any cyber attack on our power generation and distribution networks. Certain countries would like nothing more than to bring our roads network to a grinding halt because people can't charge their cars, buses and lorries.

And this is another example of a poor excuse, its took some truckers sat on their arse outside of fuel depots to close thousands of forecourts.
If there was going to be a cyber attack on the grid, then the fuel companies for those that produce petrol to those that pump it will all cease work.
 
Netherlands, Norway, Iceland etc, Even Ireland is getting in on it.
Funnily enough companies like making money so if there is a demand companies will provide just like they do for everything else.
There is no country that has several million drivers who "seem to just get on" with charging their electric cars.

And not likely to be for many years past 2030.
 

anglo

LE
Netherlands, Norway, Iceland etc, Even Ireland is getting in on it.
Funnily enough companies like making money so if there is a demand companies will provide just like they do for everything else.
Comparing Netherlands to the UK

Charging points in the Netherlands
— Regular public chargers are available 24/7 and increased from 400 stations in 2010 to 21,049 as of February 2019. Semi-public charging points are interoperable (reported as accessible by their owners) and can be found at shopping malls, office buildings, parking garages etc.

Cars in the Netherlands
There were over 8 million passenger car registrations in the Netherlands at the start of 2017. With a population of over 17 million, this means 481 passenger cars for every thousand inhabitants; less than the EU average of 505 cars per thousand inhabitants.


charge points in the UK
There are now more than 30,000 charge points across the UK in over 11,000 locations - that's more public places to charge than petrol stations, with around 10,000 charge points added in 2019 alone.

cars in the UK 2020?
38.4 million
A1) At the end of June 2020, there were 38.4 million licensed vehicles in Great Britain, a decrease of 0.9 per cent compared to the end of June 2019. This is the second quarterly decline in a row, following a recent increase in SORNs issued and a fall in new registrations.
 
I agree, people are slow to change. Some people are comfortable in the technical space they inhabit and sometimes the pace of change is too quick for some, they can't keep up. In the workplace many people are resistant to change which is why companies bring in change management 'experts'. Sometimes change is made for the sake of. It happened at my last place of employment

However, what I am not doing is making excuses, I am highlighting some the practical difficulties that need to be overcome before electric vehicles can become mainstream. There needs to be major national infrastructure investment and it's going to cost one hell of a lot of money and take a very long time. After this Covid issue is put to bed the government will need to refill the coffers and very many individuals are going to be poorer for some time to come. I can't see there being a great deal of money available and we've already seen the government getting slagged off after proposing investment for the armed forces.

Major infrastructure projects always seem to suffer delays and cost overruns and end up massively over-budget. I've already given you HS2 which was instigated c2009 and construction has only just started. The initial cost estimate for the project was about £31 billion and has doubled at least since then. Maybe even to more than £100 billion. It's not due to be completed until 2035 but you can guarantee that it will take longer. Same with Crossrail. That project was approved in 2007, construction began in 2009 and it was supposed to have been completed two years ago. It's now not expected to be completed until 2023. It had a planned budget of nearly £15 billion and is currently expected to cost somewhere close to £19bn and that cost will surely increase. I could probably dig around and find other examples but I'm not inclined to and I'm sure you get my point.

So I come back to the tens of thousands of residential streets throughout the land where it is not practicable to run charging cables across the footpaths. If it's going to take 15 years or more to build a single railway line to the North, if it's going to take 14 years to build a railway line across London, how long, realistically, is it going to take to put in place the infrastructure to allow people to charge their cars outside their homes where they don't have the luxury of off road parking? And at what cost and to whom? Maybe that's the point. Perhaps that's the intention - to inconvenience and price people out of their cars, to leave the roads more freely available for the well-off and elite.

I don't disagree with your other points either. Fair enough the internet didn't exist but it didn't replace anything else. As for mobile phones, as they were starting to become more popular nobody turned round and said "in a few years we're going to ban dedicated landlines". Same with watching films on phones. Televisions haven't been banned. Video players didn't die out because the were banned, they died out because of emerging technologies, cheaper, higher quality alternatives and consumer choice. This is what will really drive the replacement for ICE vehicles.

Look to other countries and see how they do it, they have more or less the same problems as the UK.
They also have large infrastructure projects as well.

Going back to mobile/internet/satellite TV, I wonder how many people said 30 odd years ago that they could happen on a large scale due to x reason?

There is no need to ban landlines or TVs, they arent that polluting.

The two differences with video players and EV is that, one, people could see DVDs, downloads then streaming was better and opted for it, two, the companies make more money streaming so pushed for the change.
Currently people are throwing up some poor excuses as this thread shows and there are a few car manufacturers who are reluctant to plow billions into research/manufacturing (although they are now beginning to change)

If you travel on average less than 50 miles a day which most people do
And have a drive way, why not have an EV if you are going to buy a new car? Despite the Daily mail article earlier, EVs are currently cheaper to run and if you travel regularly travel into london you dont pay the congestion charge. But people arent doing it, so they need a kick up the hoop.

Somethings I remember people saying wouldnt work, (including some on this site)

Amazon. How are they going to send books down the internet?
Contactless debit cards. If they get stolen, thieves could use them without a pin
Paying by phone. What happens if you lose your phone.
Ipads. Wheres the keyboard? (Must admit I was skeptical when they first came out)
Self service tills in supermarkets. People will steal/Its taking someones job.

Yet I would say most of people in the UK use most of those 5 examples.

130 odd years ago people were probably laughing at cars replacing horses. You need a highly flammable liquid to make it work? I need to go to one location to purchase this highly flammable liquid? I cant use it on a footpath? It will never work.
 
There is no country that has several million drivers who "seem to just get on" with charging their electric cars.

And not likely to be for many years past 2030.

They get on with it now though, instead of sitting around moaning that it cant work.
 
Comparing Netherlands to the UK

Charging points in the Netherlands
— Regular public chargers are available 24/7 and increased from 400 stations in 2010 to 21,049 as of February 2019. Semi-public charging points are interoperable (reported as accessible by their owners) and can be found at shopping malls, office buildings, parking garages etc.

Cars in the Netherlands
There were over 8 million passenger car registrations in the Netherlands at the start of 2017. With a population of over 17 million, this means 481 passenger cars for every thousand inhabitants; less than the EU average of 505 cars per thousand inhabitants.


charge points in the UK
There are now more than 30,000 charge points across the UK in over 11,000 locations - that's more public places to charge than petrol stations, with around 10,000 charge points added in 2019 alone.

cars in the UK 2020?
38.4 million
A1) At the end of June 2020, there were 38.4 million licensed vehicles in Great Britain, a decrease of 0.9 per cent compared to the end of June 2019. This is the second quarterly decline in a row, following a recent increase in SORNs issued and a fall in new registrations.

Not sure what your point is? The Netherlands is a smaller country so has less charging points. The UK needs to build more charging points relevant to its population. The same as it builds more of everything else than the Netherlands.
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
There is no country that has several million drivers who "seem to just get on" with charging their electric cars.

And not likely to be for many years past 2030.
Where does all this electricity come from? Mines? Big piles lying in the street?

What is used to generate it? How efficient is that? What environmental damage is done building these generation things? Maintaining them? Transferring electricity from the point of generation to the point of use?


All we seem to be doing is moving the problems elsewhere. We need to be looking at fewer people driving, and a better, integrated, clean, efficient public transport system.

Car and concrete manufacturers and miners of rare metals, start squealing and it's carry on jogging but pay more tax.

To the Mayor and TfL, Taxing every journey matters.
 
Where does all this electricity come from? Mines? Big piles lying in the street?

What is used to generate it? How efficient is that? What environmental damage is done building these generation things? Maintaining them? Transferring electricity from the point of generation to the point of use?


All we seem to be doing is moving the problems elsewhere. We need to be looking at fewer people driving, and a better, integrated, clean, efficient public transport system.

Car and concrete manufacturers and miners of rare metals, start squealing and it's carry on jogging but pay more tax.

To the Mayor and TfL, Taxing every journey matters.

Probably the same place where electricity came from since the 50s when most households had very few electrical appliances and now have dozens of devices.
 
Not necessarily so. Lawyers will often advise a settlement out of court as it is so much cheaper, even if they are confident of a win! The costs for lawyers, solicitors, QCs builds up rapidly so a no contest no blame settlement is often the best and cheapest way out.

Once upon a time the Solicitors Department for a large law-enforcement organisation in the greater London area (other national employers use the same methodology) used to have a formula for such civil actions.
Upon receiving a claim/action for whatever load of old bollox, (L.O.O.B.) someone sat down with a calculator and then estimated the dosh involved in contesting it.
Even if they were 110% bang in the right and would clearly win in any court action.
When it hit a certain amount in fees and peoples time, an out of court settlement (of up to £20,000 back then) was offered and funnily enough was nearly always accepted, at whatever the amount agreed.
I also feel quite sure that many local councils and county constabularies do too, from what I used to read in the News and Screws* (R.I.P.).
All involved absolutely no admission of liability, whether the allegation was factually correct/justified or not or if the person alleged against was even blameworthy in any way.

Just cold hard arithmetics, money talks and bullshit walks.


*Nowadays the papers I read all seem to tell me that the NHS is the biggest user of such out of court settlements and attached NDAs.
 

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