Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by PartTimePongo, Aug 11, 2007.
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...and is anybody surprised? I suppose "nobody has beeen killed today in Iraq" would be really breaking news.
Does anybody care?
Only that they don't start fighting between themselves in close proximity to British Forces.
Apart from that, if they want to decimate each other and make a proper job of it, crack on.
Problem is P_T_P that a lot of the good ones who have wanted to make a difference and work with us are getting bumped off. Back to tit for tat killings again I suppose.
Bad incidence but at least its not one of our blokes on the receiving end of the IED.
I know Iron , there are very definitely a lot of good ones , who don't want this to escalate any more than we really do.
I'm speaking about the extremist militias who want their sectarian bloodletting. Maybe they need to fight each other to a bloody standstill to finally see some sense, and work towards getting Iraq back on it's feet.
But , I'm wondering if these are the opening shots of an even worse sectarian struggle for power, now that we and the Americans are looking to draw down.
And the percieved weakness of the current Iraqi Government.
I concur with Iron in that at least it was not another of our own, in what has been an horrendous week (in both sandpits).
However, it is a shame as well, in that it would appear to be one of the "good guys" - if there is such a beast in that hellhole?
PTP is spot on. It appears to be another small piece of the "battle for power" jigsaw.
My view for what it is worth is get our people out now and let the Iraqis get on with it - it is a complete cesspit and not worth anymore British Armed Forces deaths. Can I say that openly on this site?
We either pour troops in to save the situation, that is troops we havnt got, or ask for more troops from other countries, which we wont get, or..........
Get the fcuk out and leave them to it?
I have to go with the fact that even though there are many who want peace and stability. While we are there they wont or cant sort their own problems out.
While we are the root cause and we can argue the rights and wrongs of that till the cows come home I believe only by disengaging will the region start to form its self. Its unfortunate but true, that intervention to impose democracy in an area that has never properly embraced it! Will never work.
To long the enemy of my enemy is my friend has been the policy of the first division nations and I have yet to see this work.
There will without doubt be more horrors to come from there regardless of what we hope to achieve. And the loss of more service men and women from any nation is a loss that I believe to be needless.
I fear also that the Stan and Pakistan will also just become areas of more cross sectarian and tribal carnage. We as a nation cannot bankroll the reconstruction of these countries in all honesty.
I know that its easy for me to say this safe at home but its what I believe let us hope that the draw down is as bloodless as possible for us and other forces there.
edited for applaling grammar and spelling
Bad news if its been done by JAM - this is the spark that could lead to significant conflict between ISCI/Badr and OMS/JAM - its happened before and could happen again. My gut feeling though is that if nothing happens in the next 24 hours, then based on previous issues like this, it will probably not be too bad.
If we do pull out completely from Iraq and the 'stan. what chance is there that when those countries establish governments, they're going to be friendly to the West?
We've had a chunk of the ME narked at us for a while, it'd be nice to install, er, establish some friendly rulers.
Part of the problem imo is the western governments trying to pretend to be nicey-nicey instead of sticking to a pure "national interest" line. If they'd kept the Iraqi army together and picked some general who was popular from the Iran-Iraq war to be in charge and then just f*cked off instead of all this building (imposing really) democracy and freedom guff then we might have been out of it years ago.
Well installing friendly western rulers has never really worked has it .
Either for the poor bar stewards who have to live under the murdering fcukwits or the west in the long run .There is oil elsewhere and other forms of energy.Being able to drive an suv cheaply isnt worth dying for.
Giving our leaders a map with here be dragons covering the middle east
appeals more and more.
they will only try and bring the dragons into the alliance of the willing though woody lets face it i wouldnt trust most of the adults in westminster or washington to be able to find there own arrse in day with a map and a highly paid lobbyist.
very little in the short term perhaps none at all in the long term, but the genral populace of both of these countries have lived a diferent way with different ideals and different views to us for the vast bulk of the 20th century
Some have choose adopted weastern ideals but let us be truthfull with ourselves many have not, there happy and have no axe to grind with us but if they realy wanted democracy in the way we understand, and have tried too impose it they would have fought hard for it.
I do wounder if the money spent and wasted in reconstruction and aid and the money needed be it crow bar'ed from the treasury to prosecute this war would have been better off in R and D in alternative fuels.
NOT TO MENTION THE WASTE OF OUR AND OTHER NATIONS SOLDIERS.
Had we also stuck to Afganistan in the first place once the taliban had been 'beaten'! And looked to the reality of engageing and beating AQ was never going to be a conventional engagement.
still let us hope that perhaps a new map with there be dragons if they look scarey enough might send monkeyboy back too the bottle.
True and why i'm generally not in favour of the government meddling in other people's countries as it nearly always goes wrong. It's just that even if people hate you they hate you less if you're honest. So all the spin about us doing stuff out of the goodness of our hearts rather than the real reasons just winds the locals up imo. Then again that assumes proactive defence was the real reason. I thought it was but I'm not at all sure now.
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