Boeing V-22 Osprey

#1
I was just watching a programe about the Osprey, It seems the Yanks love it and has proved its worth (according to them).

With the new Carriers being built, is this something we need? or is it merely a nice to have? I know we are skint, but in my unqualified view surely this is a capability that could enhance our projection of force and give Commander's an additional option?

Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Schaden

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#2
Even Dick Cheney tried to get that thing killed off - which should tell you something.

Is there a list somewhere of how many people it's killed so far?
 
#3
Even Dick Cheney tried to get that thing killed off - which should tell you something.

Is there a list somewhere of how many people it's killed so far?
During testing, there had been around 30 people killed i think, It seems all the problems have been ironed out and it's now been in full service since 2007/8 without any other deaths.
 
#6
No it killed 4 in April last year.
Yep, just seen. Whilst there will always be aircraft accidents its unfortunate how many have been killed in the development and testing. Say if, once all the problems are ironed out, would this aircrat be suitable for say the FAA?
 
C

cloudbuster

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#8
Yep, just seen. Whilst there will always be aircraft accidents its unfortunate how many have been killed in the development and testing. Say if, once all the problems are ironed out, would this aircrat be suitable for say the FAA?
What would you operate it from? Will it fit the CV we hope to complete? What about other vessels? What role do you see it fulfill that Merlin/Chinook can't already do?
 
#9
During testing, there had been around 30 people killed i think, It seems all the problems have been ironed out and it's now been in full service since 2007/8 without any other deaths.
I think that, early on in the carrier project, the Osprey was considered for the airborne early warning platform and for the carrier on board delivery role performed by Greyhound aircraft in the US Navy.

As has been stated. initial performance of the Osprey was pretty disastrous. IIRC, it had been assumed that it would operate like a Chinook in helicopter mode. The designers had not considered the fact that the Chinook doesn't have wings but the Osprey does. Modification of the air flow from the rotors by the wings set up unbalanced, aerodynamic nasties like ring vortices that led to a number of crashes and deaths.

Last time I read anything about the Osprey, which was a while ago, workarounds had been implemented to mitigate these problems. I don't think there can be a fix as the faults are caused by aerodynamics, that can't be changed. It all looks a bit dodgy.
 
#10
Its faster than a conventional heli(463kph vrs 295kph for uh60), and a slightly better range(3,590km vrs 2,200km for uh60) so on the face of it there are some advantages, but a LOT of problems to go with it.

firstly
it can't autorotate, so in the words of the pentagon any engine failure below 1,600 ft is "unlikely to be survivable". 34 have died in v22 crashes so far.

secondly
wiki puts the cost of a v22 at $67 million, where as the uh60 is around $7million. which is massively expensive


it fills a gap that does not really exist, when you have air to air refuelling the only real advantage is speed and that not really worth the money. you might as well just use conventional aircraft. Even the guys that killed osama used a black hawk(a stealthy one).
 
#12
it fills a gap that does not really exist, when you have air to air refuelling the only real advantage is speed and that not really worth the money. you might as well just use conventional aircraft. Even the guys that killed osama used a black hawk(a stealthy one).
It's doubly redundant now that we're to have a "proper" aircraft carrier. With catapults and arrestor wires we could operate Hawkeye AEW aircraft and something akin to the Greyhound COD aircraft.

In fact, the US Navy once landed a Hercules on one of their carriers and sent it packing again. As CVF won't be that much smaller than the US carrier involved, we should have no problems moving stuff around.
 
#13
A nice idea in theory that struggles in practice. It can get around more quickly, but can't go right up to the FEBA because landing's a more complicated, drawn-out (and therefore vulnerable) affair. So you can get somewhere near more quickly, but then have a longer advance to contact. And, as noted, there's the 'can't autorotate' issue.

The Americans would've been better off buying more Sea Stallions but politics got in the way.
 
#14
Its faster than a conventional heli(463kph vrs 295kph for uh60), and a slightly better range(3,590km vrs 2,200km for uh60) so on the face of it there are some advantages, but a LOT of problems to go with it.

firstly
it can't autorotate, so in the words of the pentagon any engine failure below 1,600 ft is "unlikely to be survivable". 34 have died in v22 crashes so far.

secondly
wiki puts the cost of a v22 at $67 million, where as the uh60 is around $7million. which is massively expensive


it fills a gap that does not really exist, when you have air to air refuelling the only real advantage is speed and that not really worth the money. you might as well just use conventional aircraft. Even the guys that killed osama used a black hawk(a stealthy one).
Osprey was designed in response to the Desert Claw fiasco. The request was for an aircraft that was as fast a plane, as long enduring as a plane but capable of VTOL.

Ospreys have killed a few people, and have been slated by the USMC old guard for a lack of armament.

Having flown in one, around the time of April last year. I, for one, like them.

They are a bit daunting at first, or perhaps the pilots were just gunning it to get out of the LZ.

They go up, and then to max speed with remarkable speed. They can carry a fair whack too.

Their dramas lie in the lack of wingspan required to glide and the lack of disc area (ie rotors) to auto rotate correctly. I think a parachute mounted where the wings and fuselage meet on top has been looked at.

The death toll is probably unduly high as a fully laden Osprey came down, for those proponents of the Chinook, didn't they have a patchy start?


and for what it worth having been in the situation of attempting to get a fcuking pallet over that ramp mounted gun that the loadies didn't think to move on the CH-53, I'd much prefer the cleaner aspect of the Osprey.

A couple of them at least would provide a good capability, and for sea going ops such as aew etc even with a grown up carrier they provide a good lift and other capabilities.

If the pic doesn't come up http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...aq_compared_with_CH-46E_combat_radius.svg.png

CH-46 is the mini chinnook that the USMC operate.
 
#15
That pic comparing the v22 to the ch46E is a little misleading really, your comparing a 1960's aircraft to a modern one. comparing it to a merlin or black hawk would be more sensible, and there is a much smaller difference. certainly not a difference that would justify the massive cost.
 
#16
Not really. The V22 is replacing the 46, so the comparison is valid in that respect.

So to work.
V22 Osprey
Max range, 1,011 miles/1,627 km/879 nmi that is 148 miles further than Merlin and 369 less than Black hawk fitted with all the gubbins
Combat Radius 426 mi/722 km/390 nmi not listed for Merlin but 58 miles further than Blackhawk
Cruise speed: 241 knots (277 mph, 446 km/h) at sea level CRUISES faster than Merlins max speed by 85mph and 55mph faster than a cruising blackhawk[color]
Max takeoff weight: 60,500 lb (27,400 kg)
Crew: Four (pilot, copilot and two flight engineers)
Capacity: 24 troops (seated), 32 troops (floor loaded) or
* 20,000 lb (9,070 kg) of internal cargo, or up to 15,000 lb (6,800 kg) of external cargo (dual hook)
same seated troops as a Merlin but outstrips Blackhawk by 10. I wont compare sitting on the floor and standing up(?!). the internal load and the hook of the Osprey outstrips the Helicotprs by a good margin.

EH101 Merlin
Range: 1,389 km (750 nmi, 863 mi)
Never exceed speed: 309 km/h (167 knots, 192 mph)
Max takeoff weight: 15,600 kg (32,188 lb)
Crew: 4
capacity: * 24 seated troops or 45 standing troops or 16 stretchers with medics
Useful load 5,600kg

Black Hawk
Range 1,380 mi[121] (1,200 nmi, 2,220 km) with ESSS stub wings and external tanks
combat radius 368 mi (320 nmi, 592 km)
cruising speed 222 mi/357 kmh/193 nmi
max takeoff weight 23,500lb
crew 4
capacity 14 troops or 6 stretchers
load 2,640lb intenally, or up to 9,000lb on hooks
 
#17
I think you should be comparing it to a Chinook or CH53 as opposed to Merlin, Blackhawk or CH46....

Its like comparing a Humvee with a Morris Marina
 
#18
I think you should be comparing it to a Chinook or CH53 as opposed to Merlin, Blackhawk or CH46....

Its like comparing a Humvee with a Morris Marina
True, I was comparing as per the request... however.

V22 Osprey
Max range, 1,011 miles/1,627 km/879 nmi
Combat Radius 426 mi/722 km/390 nmi
Cruise speed: 241 knots (277 mph, 446 km/h) at sea level
Max takeoff weight: 60,500 lb (27,400 kg)
Crew: Four (pilot, copilot and two flight engineers)
Capacity: 24 troops (seated), 32 troops (floor loaded) or
* 20,000 lb (9,070 kg) of internal cargo, or up to 15,000 lb (6,800 kg) of external cargo (dual hook)

Chinnook
Max Range, 450 miles 560 miles less
Cruis speed 137 mph 140 mph slower
crew 3
capacity 33 - 55 pax or 24 litters
28,000lbs of lift.
so much more pax but not that much more lift.


CH-53
combat range 100 miles 300 miles less than osprey
crusing 17mph 100 mph slower
crew 3 +
capcity 38 to 55 troops (they must be hanging to the rotors or something) more than the Osprey
or 8,000lbs less than half the load of osprey.
 
#19
Osprey is fast and far reaching, certainly more so than normal helis.

But the larger helis carry more troops. Only the might Chin can lift more.
 
#20
Your right in that the V22 does not compare to the merlin or blackhawk, but the role it is being suggested for is filled by those aircraft. what i was trying to get at is that the alternative to the V22 are significantly cheaper and can fill similar roles.

some figures put the blackawk at about 1/10th the cost of a v22, the merlin at 1/3rd the cost of a v22 and a chinook at about half the cost. is it worth it?
 

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