Bloody Sunday,the truth???

ABF9

Old-Salt
#1
One of the worst moments in the History of the Para Reg or is there more to it?



When I used to buy books about British Airborne forces I would alway look to see what it says about bloody sunday first.

If it said somthing along the lines of "the para's killed 13 IRA men " I would know straight away the book was not worth having.Just para reg PR not a serious read.


I am interested to know your views on this controversial topic.
 
#2
ABF9 said:
One of the worst moments in the History of the Para Reg or is there more to it?



When I used to buy books about British Airborne forces I would alway look to see what it says about bloody sunday first.

If it said somthing along the lines of "the para's killed 13 IRA men " I would know straight away the book was not worth having.Just para reg PR not a serious read.


I am interested to know your views on this controversial topic.
:yawnstretch:

Why don't you start us off with a detailed and non-Para Reg PR view then - or are you just after starting a contentious thread with a bone question so that you can walk away and watch the bickering?

:roll:
 

ABF9

Old-Salt
#3
I am just interested in the views that people have.

I have read a lot about this on the internet and from books on the subject writen by Bitish and Irish.

One thing that I found out was that a few shots were fired at the paras that day that could have lead to the violence starting or at least making it worse.

Another thing was that it appeared that most of the shooting was done by only 5 o 6 1para soldiers who seemed out of control on the day.
 
#4
I met one chap who was there on the day and he told me his story, I saw a rather good docudrama on it and both his story and the docudrama matched. I also read a lot of the eveidence of the inquirey, which, quite surprisingly also matched the chap I met and the docudrama story.

I hope a certain person who ran and knelt by a low wall and opened fire on unarmed civilians has been able to live with himself these past 36 years without the needless deaths caused that day or deaths as a follow-on and retaliation for that day on playing on his mind every waking hour!
 

ABF9

Old-Salt
#5
I know this is a very toutchy subject for a lot of people for different reasons.

But this incident led to the resergence of the IRA and to the spreading of violence.

I think its important that we face up to the truth even if we dont like what we find.
 
#6
I know only this:

The Army was fired on by persons unknown, and responded in kind.

All of those killed were male and of an age (oldest early 40s, I think?) to be "players". No women; no children; no elderly were shot.

A lot of forensic evidence/ opinion regarding location of killing shots, possible previous handling of weapons/ explosives by the dead etc has not been properly aired/ submitted to unbiased scrutiny/ interrogation.

Number of rounds fired by Army on that day: even the wildest allegations have yet to come close to a figure commensurate with the suggestion that this was a platoon, let alone larger formation, of troops "out of control" or engaged in a killing frenzy. Do you really think that had this been the case there would only have been 13 dead? Go figure - as the Yanks say.
 

ABF9

Old-Salt
#7
Wessex_Man said:
I know only this:

The Army was fired on by persons unknown, and responded in kind.

All of those killed were male and of an age (oldest early 40s, I think?) to be "players". No women; no children; no elderly were shot.

A lot of forensic evidence/ opinion regarding location of killing shots, possible previous handling of weapons/ explosives by the dead etc has not been properly aired/ submitted to unbiased scrutiny/ interrogation.

Number of rounds fired by Army on that day: even the wildest allegations have yet to come close to a figure commensurate with the suggestion that this was a platoon, let alone larger formation, of troops "out of control" or engaged in a killing frenzy. Do you really think that had this been the case there would only have been 13 dead? Go figure - as the Yanks say.
Did not say a platoon.

I said 5 or 6 out of control soldiers.

I know from my own time in the army,the number of rounds you are issued is not always the number of rounds that you are carrying.

The fact they were all male proves nothing.In a fucked up sort of way they might have thought it imoral to shoot women or children.


If you read a report given by a para there at the time he said word to the affect that he wanted to fire his wepon but he could see any targets and he could not see what the others were shooting at.
 
#8
You 'know'?

Explain, just how do you know? Were you there? Who/what is you source? Do you have more than one source?

Responded in kind? 13 Para Regt soldiers weren't shot that day my friend... but a good few more were in the years to come!
 
#9
ABF9 said:
Wessex_Man said:
I know only this:

The Army was fired on by persons unknown, and responded in kind.

All of those killed were male and of an age (oldest early 40s, I think?) to be "players". No women; no children; no elderly were shot.

A lot of forensic evidence/ opinion regarding location of killing shots, possible previous handling of weapons/ explosives by the dead etc has not been properly aired/ submitted to unbiased scrutiny/ interrogation.

Number of rounds fired by Army on that day: even the wildest allegations have yet to come close to a figure commensurate with the suggestion that this was a platoon, let alone larger formation, of troops "out of control" or engaged in a killing frenzy. Do you really think that had this been the case there would only have been 13 dead? Go figure - as the Yanks say.
Did not say a platoon.

I said 5 or 6 out of control soldiers.

I know from my own time in the army,the number of rounds you are issued is not always the number of rounds that you are carrying.

The fact they were all male proves nothing.In a fucked up sort of way they might have thought it imoral to shoot women or children.


If you read a report given by a para there at the time he said word to the affect that he wanted to fire his wepon but he could see any targets and he could not see what the others were shooting at.
And that's the chap I met! Ended up knowing him quite well for a while too!
 

ABF9

Old-Salt
#10
I have read pages and pages of both the inquests into the shootings.Plus books writen by all sides of the argument.All of what I have said is in the public domain.

As I have already said the para's were shot at a few times,its just a question of when and was there respons resonable.
 
#11
ABF9 said:
I know this is a very toutchy subject for a lot of people for different reasons.

But this incident led to the resergence of the IRA and to the spreading of violence.

I think its important that we face up to the truth even if we dont like what we find.
If this incident,which took place in 1972 led to the resurgence of the IRA and the spreading of violence, why was I there in 1970?
 
#12
MMG was the "brigade" cdr of the IRA in Stroke City that day. They had weapons and good vantage points. They also managed to remove any evidence of this before the firing had died down. Several eye-witnesses have testified to the fact that the IRA fired first.
 
#13
gallahad said:
ABF9 said:
I know this is a very toutchy subject for a lot of people for different reasons.

But this incident led to the resergence of the IRA and to the spreading of violence.

I think its important that we face up to the truth even if we dont like what we find.
If this incident,which took place in 1972 led to the resurgence of the IRA and the spreading of violence, why was I there in 1970?
Supporting the RUC i believe , they were a bit overrun and military assistance was required ,thats what my father said he went for .
The Bloody sunday incident was a boost in the area for PIRA in the Derry area ,who were previously going through a stale patch as their members were getting interned or caught , afterwards they had people queuing up apparently.
It didnt help the inquiry said that some were unarmed and the coroner who was ex army thought it was murder .

I wasnt there so i only have what i have been told by those who were there and the stuff i have read and seen on telly .Wiki is good for those who dont know about the incident to get a heads up .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)
 
#15
whatnow? said:
afterwards they had people queuing up apparently.
This is true, it also happened when the IRA bombed Belfast, and the Red Hand Commandos and the UVF had Protestants queueing up to join.
 

ABF9

Old-Salt
#16
GDav said:
MMG was the "brigade" cdr of the IRA in Stroke City that day. They had weapons and good vantage points. They also managed to remove any evidence of this before the firing had died down. Several eye-witnesses have testified to the fact that the IRA fired first.

From what I understand most IRA weopons were removed before the march to try and avoid any trouble.


Yes I have read that the IRA might have fired the first shots from a hand gun.
 
#17
I was there and I led the initial statement taking from military personnel. I have contrubuted some 60+ pages of personal evidence to the Saville Inquiry. I walked in behind the first troops through the barrier - I was in sybill plain clothes - and heard the first shot. As it was in a closed in area surrounded by buildings it was not possible to say whether or not it was SLR or whatever. I got offside and went to the Tower Ballroom roof which was local command post. The comment from a very (very) senior officer I heard was "If I had the rest of Para Bde here I'd go straight through and clear them all out"
I saw nothing to suggest that any example to PIRA was planned. 1 Para were the tps used when a regt had lost control of it area of ops. The brass in HQ NI may have thought that position had been reached in (London)Derry after the saga at McGilligan when tps were alomost overrun. The units at Derry certainly had a far lower profile that Belfast tps when it came to using firepower.
There were bad drills by us. One para fired some 13 rounds at a small window. No hits and, seemingly, no damage to the window. He maintained his claim even after very rigourous questioning. There was a lot of debate about a youth found with a nail bomb in his pocket. I certainly saw the bomb in his pocket but cannot say 100% how it got there. Claim was we planted it. He was already dead and was in the very tight denims uniform of the yobbos of that era so getting it planted would have been difficult. Only was Felix got it out was to cut open the pocket. Some of those detained were forced to run the gauntlet of Army dogs - this as usual was organised by tps who had been a long way from the action.
Saville will solve nothing. At ridiculous cost. Those who "knew" what happened will not change their minds. What goes contrary to their "knowledge" will be branded as lies. Yes, it did recruit PIRA but they were hotheads and not of great tactical value. Yes, there was a revenge attack in Belfast.
I am not concerned here with OP or Per SEC. It is all in the public domain anyway. I only post as we seem to be running out of blokes who were there.
 

ABF9

Old-Salt
#18
OldRedCap said:
I was there and I led the initial statement taking from military personnel. I have contrubuted some 60+ pages of personal evidence to the Saville Inquiry. I walked in behind the first troops through the barrier - I was in sybill plain clothes - and heard the first shot. As it was in a closed in area surrounded by buildings it was not possible to say whether or not it was SLR or whatever. I got offside and went to the Tower Ballroom roof which was local command post. The comment from a very (very) senior officer I heard was "If I had the rest of Para Bde here I'd go straight through and clear them all out"
I saw nothing to suggest that any example to PIRA was planned. 1 Para were the tps used when a regt had lost control of it area of ops. The brass in HQ NI may have thought that position had been reached in (London)Derry after the saga at McGilligan when tps were alomost overrun. The units at Derry certainly had a far lower profile that Belfast tps when it came to using firepower.
There were bad drills by us. One para fired some 13 rounds at a small window. No hits and, seemingly, no damage to the window. He maintained his claim even after very rigourous questioning. There was a lot of debate about a youth found with a nail bomb in his pocket. I certainly saw the bomb in his pocket but cannot say 100% how it got there. Claim was we planted it. He was already dead and was in the very tight denims uniform of the yobbos of that era so getting it planted would have been difficult. Only was Felix got it out was to cut open the pocket. Some of those detained were forced to run the gauntlet of Army dogs - this as usual was organised by tps who had been a long way from the action.
Saville will solve nothing. At ridiculous cost. Those who "knew" what happened will not change their minds. What goes contrary to their "knowledge" will be branded as lies. Yes, it did recruit PIRA but they were hotheads and not of great tactical value. Yes, there was a revenge attack in Belfast.
I am not concerned here with OP or Per SEC. It is all in the public domain anyway. I only post as we seem to be running out of blokes who were there.
Was there any evidence of PIRA gunfire such as empty shells or other fired rounds found ?
 
#19
gallahad said:
ABF9 said:
I know this is a very toutchy subject for a lot of people for different reasons.

But this incident led to the resergence of the IRA and to the spreading of violence.

I think its important that we face up to the truth even if we dont like what we find.
If this incident,which took place in 1972 led to the resurgence of the IRA and the spreading of violence, why was I there in 1970?
Funnily enough, you were there because a labour government sent you, Tony (Benn, not B-liar) thought it might be good if some chaps who were representing the Crown and not hell bent on burning out and ethnically cleansing the Catholic community were sent in to protect them! Anyone old enough to remember being 'welcomed' by members of the nationalist community?
 
#20
Funnily enough I used to work with an ex RUC who was a young Con at the time. He told me he was stationed at a morgue (or wherever it was the bodies were taken to). He claimed that one of the bodies came in with nothing on it, yet later it was alleged that a blast bomb was found in a pocket. He is adament that it was not there when the body first came in.

Whatever happend that day the British Army got it badly wrong and handed SF / IRA its greatest recruiting and propaganda victory of the "Troubles". This single event has been used to pummel the army adnausium for years and until SF / IRA get the result they want they will continue to use it. They knew that time was on their side and eventually someone like Blair would come along and give them whatever they wanted, even if it amounts to the re-run of the greatest propaganda victory they could ever hope for.

For Blair it just proves that we and the enemy are all the same and there is nothing to choose between us. He does not view us as the good guys and them as the bad. For people like him it is a choice of whom to sacrifice in order to support his own political agenda.

However, in this case the army is the author of its own misfortune and Blair is something that should have been forseen when dealing with the fall out all those years ago. Although it must have been hard for them to imagine that eventually someone as treacherous as Blair would come to power and be actively willing to give into SF / IRA at every opportunity and sacrifice anyone who every stood up to the enemy while lauding the likes of Adams and co as somehow men of peace, knowing all the time that they were and remain terrorists.


If Saville does not come out with the "correct" result as determined by SF / IRA then they will continue to use it as a weapon. Furthermore, of Saville does come pout with the correct result they will still continue to use it to deamonise British rule in Northern Ireland as a jackbooted Nazi style regime no matter what the majoprity population believe.
 

Similar threads


Latest Threads

Top