Bloke on the Range videos

tiv

LE
I have to apologise regarding the casting/forging.. I obviously had a brain fart at that point, however I suggest my contention still stands in that the setup cost for forging is high and is only economic for long production runs..
I remember the setup at Enfield for L1 production. Receiver forgings were brought in and a lot of the machining was done on a number of Weatherly Oilgear slab broaching machines brought in for the job, the installation for which can't have been cheap. The machines were upright and stood in pits with roughly half the height below ground. There was an overhead hoist system for fitting and removing the broach bars and a pumped cutting oil supply plus a special grinder used to resharpen the broachs.
 

HE117

LE
NRA High Power goes out to 600 yds and is dominated by AR15's ;)
Yeah, ok.. but most of the service ARs could not get that far...!
 
Except the Leader T2 isn't actually made from standard box section, contrary to popular belief. I believe it was the original design intention, but mine, and every other one I've seen photos of, is folded sheet, presumably to hold to tighter tolerances. That's way beyond hobby workshop since it requires specialist dies and forms, and that's before we've even gone into the problems of hardening the various parts.
I never said the T2 was made from box just that it could be.
 
I never said the T2 was made from box just that it could be.
I think the fact that it was intended to be but ultimately wasn't is telling though, no?
 
Certainly is. Box section can spring out of shape when you cut bits out of it, maybe this is the reason ?
Possibly, the residual stresses from drawing must be quite something. Or it could just be the general tolerances on the thing.
 
I remember the setup at Enfield for L1 production. Receiver forgings were brought in and a lot of the machining was done on a number of Weatherly Oilgear slab broaching machines brought in for the job, the installation for which can't have been cheap. The machines were upright and stood in pits with roughly half the height below ground. There was an overhead hoist system for fitting and removing the broach bars and a pumped cutting oil supply plus a special grinder used to resharpen the broachs.
I was planning a crafty urban exploration of the Enfield lock site after it closed but I was too late everything had gone. I bet there were some goodies in there at some point. My canal boat was moored right outside by Enfield lock.
 

tiv

LE
I was planning a crafty urban exploration of the Enfield lock site after it closed but I was too late everything had gone. I bet there were some goodies in there at some point. My canal boat was moored right outside by Enfield lock.
I regret now not taking a camera in and taking photos. I was working on the range so could have managed without being seen. Don't know how long it was left there after it closed but there was a GR3 in there used in the ADEN25 testing.
 
Yeah, ok.. but most of the service ARs could not get that far...!
Target rifles are a limited market, so if you are going to get into the business of making them it pays to pick as a basis to start from a rifle for which there are lots of third party components you can buy in order to limit the amount of capital you need to invest in the business. You can then focus on making the parts of the rifle which will matter the most for accuracy rather than trying to make everything from scratch.
 
Certainly is. Box section can spring out of shape when you cut bits out of it, maybe this is the reason ?
How readily are you going to be able to buy steel square tubing of the correct wall thickness and consistent dimensions? That sort of thing is generally fairly thick walled and of very rough dimensions. It might be OK to make a rough proof of concept prototype out of, but for mass production I think you would need to make your own from stampings.
 
You can get your own mill run, to whatever dimensions, precision and heat treatment you’d like, for a cost.
Or you could design to use a common size that is normalised (better dimensional stability after machining)
But in steel the larger sections tend to have thicker walls for stability against buckling so by the time you can fit the working bits inside the wall thickness will make it rather heavy.

Aluminium extrusions might work better, being lighter for a given wall thickness. Isn’t the M17S made from an aluminium extrusion?

Pressings are great once you’ve got them working, though that should be easier these days with computer modelling.
 
How readily are you going to be able to buy steel square tubing of the correct wall thickness and consistent dimensions? That sort of thing is generally fairly thick walled and of very rough dimensions. It might be OK to make a rough proof of concept prototype out of, but for mass production I think you would need to make your own from stampings.
My previous post was about making one or more in a shed not mass production. 35 x 35 x 2 mm ERW square tube off the shelf and as close as you need to be to an AR18 upper and at 0.2 mm tolerance well within the tolerances you would need to build one from scratch.
 

HE117

LE
Target rifles are a limited market, so if you are going to get into the business of making them it pays to pick as a basis to start from a rifle for which there are lots of third party components you can buy in order to limit the amount of capital you need to invest in the business. You can then focus on making the parts of the rifle which will matter the most for accuracy rather than trying to make everything from scratch.
I wasn't referring to target rifles.. my point was that I found it difficult to hit a Fig 11 at more than 200m with a US issued AR, and frankly found that a bit of a problem, when I could easily group on one out to more than double that with my UK Issued A2...

I would very much prefer to drop my enemies at sensible ranges given the chance...!

I build my own target rifles...!
 
I wasn't referring to target rifles.. my point was that I found it difficult to hit a Fig 11 at more than 200m with a US issued AR, and frankly found that a bit of a problem, when I could easily group on one out to more than double that with my UK Issued A2...
Any AR or specifically an M4?
 
I wasn't referring to target rifles.. my point was that I found it difficult to hit a Fig 11 at more than 200m with a US issued AR, and frankly found that a bit of a problem, when I could easily group on one out to more than double that with my UK Issued A2...

I would very much prefer to drop my enemies at sensible ranges given the chance...!

I build my own target rifles...!
I think the point is that there are ARs and there are ARs. They're not all the same. Some will be pretty good and others will be utter garbage.
 
I found it difficult to hit a Fig 11 at more than 200m with a US issued AR, and frankly found that a bit of a problem, when I could easily group on one out to more than double that with my UK Issued A2...
Not really fodder for this thread, but you reinforce a point discussed endlessly elsewhere, that unless you invest in teaching the average soldier to employ it effectively, money spent on a service rifle with target rifle accuracy is largely wasted.
 
I wasn't referring to target rifles.. my point was that I found it difficult to hit a Fig 11 at more than 200m with a US issued AR, and frankly found that a bit of a problem, when I could easily group on one out to more than double that with my UK Issued A2...
I had no problems nailing a Swiss torso target, which is smaller than a Fig. 11, at 400m with an as-issued M16A1 (iron sights) and Fiocchi 55gn blatting fodder, so I'd suggest that any problem you had beyond 200m is not inherent to the system :)
 

HE117

LE
I had no problems nailing a Swiss torso target, which is smaller than a Fig. 11, at 400m with an as-issued M16A1 (iron sights) and Fiocchi 55gn blatting fodder, so I'd suggest that any problem you had beyond 200m is not inherent to the system :)
As stonker says.. there are ARs and ARs, and probably a difference between an AR "when issued as new" and "after having been in the hands of rough soldiery..!"

I am just saying what I saw...!
 

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