Bloke on the Range videos

ugly

LE
Moderator
Question for the Old and Bold such as @ugly re. issue of SMG in theory in practice.

Who was meant to get it?
Who actually got it (or ditched it for a rifle)?

The classic World's Most Unflappable Cpl training film on section battle drill has him carrying a rifle, for instance, and having gone through the 1975 pam, to me it seems that it's not set up to teach the SMG as a primary offensive wpn...
In the Infantry platoons the signaller and the 84 no 1 men all got The smg, everyone else had that rifle!
In support plns such as Milan and mortars it was rare to see anything other than smgs and most mt pln drivers had smgs but section drivers in airmobile plns had to be lucky not to get that rifle
 
In the Infantry platoons the signaller and the 84 no 1 men all got The smg, everyone else had that rifle!
In support plns such as Milan and mortars it was rare to see anything other than smgs and most mt pln drivers had smgs but section drivers in airmobile plns had to be lucky not to get that rifle
Thanks :)

OK, as a general rule, guys embuggered with other big stuff. So issued rather more along the lines of how the US issued M1 Carbines (or pistols) and not how STENs were issued in the bolt-action era.

Edit to add: and this certainly jives with the tone of the 1975 pam :)
 
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itchy300

Old-Salt
Just had a quick look here


And unfortunately doesn't show coy hq or support coy but it is a good site for general orbats at various periods.

It mentions 3 mags being the scale which I seem to recall our old and bold platoon signaller saying aswell
 
Just had a quick look here


And unfortunately doesn't show coy hq or support coy but it is a good site for general orbats at various periods.

It mentions 3 mags being the scale which I seem to recall our old and bold platoon signaller saying aswell
Thanks for that!
 

4(T)

LE
Question for the Old and Bold such as @ugly re. issue of SMG in theory in practice.

Who was meant to get it?
Who actually got it (or ditched it for a rifle)?

The classic World's Most Unflappable Cpl training film on section battle drill has him carrying a rifle, for instance, and having gone through the 1975 pam, to me it seems that it's not set up to teach the SMG as a primary offensive wpn...


SMG was definitely primary weapon for a lot of people. For whom depended upon the orbat. For my first unit it was more or less every officer below major, most WOs (WO1 had pistol), SNCOs and det commanders, most drivers, the REMEs. Probably overall about 2 SMGs per 3 rifles.

There were a lot of SMGs in the armouries. IIRC ancils were six mags plus bayonet (SLR and SMG) with, so I understand, another four mags for each weapon to be issued from Corps mob stocks on deployment*.

Each sub-unit also had about 6x L4s and 2x CGs**. Not a lot of firepower for a unit expected to take part in covering force operations!


* There were occasional "outload" tests, where some unfortunate subunit - usually mine - had to go and collect its entire war deployment kit. This is when you had to figure out how to fit 10x NBC suits, 10x ten man rations, 30x GC rounds and about 100kg of 1m2 map sheets - all into a 1/2 ton FFR landrover.



** A sub-unit had convinced one hapless chap that his duties included carrying both CGs (+ rifle) on exercise. He was a bit (ok, very) educationally subnormal, so took it hook line and sinker, and duly staggered around with two CGs for a whole exercise season. The fun was eventually spoiled when he had to take a message into the tight confines of a Bde Tac where there were some particularly humourless VSOs in conference. It says a lot about BAOR that every other person he'd so far encountered in 1 (Br)Corps had automatically run with the wind-up!
 
SMG was definitely primary weapon for a lot of people. For whom depended upon the orbat. For my first unit it was more or less every officer below major, most WOs (WO1 had pistol), SNCOs and det commanders, most drivers, the REMEs. Probably overall about 2 SMGs per 3 rifles.

There were a lot of SMGs in the armouries. IIRC ancils were six mags plus bayonet (SLR and SMG) with, so I understand, another four mags for each weapon to be issued from Corps mob stocks on deployment*.

Each sub-unit also had about 6x L4s and 2x CGs**. Not a lot of firepower for a unit expected to take part in covering force operations!


* There were occasional "outload" tests, where some unfortunate subunit - usually mine - had to go and collect its entire war deployment kit. This is when you had to figure out how to fit 10x NBC suits, 10x ten man rations, 30x GC rounds and about 100kg of 1m2 map sheets - all into a 1/2 ton FFR landrover.



** A sub-unit had convinced one hapless chap that his duties included carrying both CGs (+ rifle) on exercise. He was a bit (ok, very) educationally subnormal, so took it hook line and sinker, and duly staggered around with two CGs for a whole exercise season. The fun was eventually spoiled when he had to take a message into the tight confines of a Bde Tac where there were some particularly humourless VSOs in conference. It says a lot about BAOR that every other person he'd so far encountered in 1 (Br)Corps had automatically run with the wind-up!
Interesting, thanks. Quite different to Uggs and Neil (who I asked off-platform and whose memory was in line with Uggs).
 
Anyone got a copy of this they could lend me by any chance?

1589901396894.png
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
There is a kindle short version
 
Oh, I've got that one in PDF and am making my way through it.

Someone said that our friend Mr. Laidler (currently enjoying porridge) made a lot of the stuff up in his book based on range fuddlore, so I don't want to expend a significant chunk of BotR budget buying a book that might be tonk...
 
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
No one has done the Portuguese Mauser Viguero yet!
 
SMG was definitely primary weapon for a lot of people. For whom depended upon the orbat. For my first unit it was more or less every officer below major, most WOs (WO1 had pistol), SNCOs and det commanders, most drivers, the REMEs. Probably overall about 2 SMGs per 3 rifles.

There were a lot of SMGs in the armouries.
Yup, this. As a frequently-dicked Orderly Officer (play stupid games, win stupid prizes) I remember the nausea involved in figuring out exactly which SMG owner hadn't returned their weapon to the armoury, on the night of the battalion all-ranks barbecue. Our battalion weekends would find the rifle companies with six or seven SMGs in their arms kote (drivers, signallers, chefs); but a full serial-number check of HQ Company involved about sixty of the damn things - bearing in mind that this was "who turned up for the weekend's training", not "all the weapons in the battalion".

Fortunately, we found it. I guessed correctly; someone missed armoury closing-time, and decided that they would just wrap it up in their sleeping bag and head off for some drinking (big tick for Lt Gravelbelly, I was obviously learning). Doubly fortunately, they were still on-camp, and hadn't headed off downtown to the bright lights and excitement of Broughty Ferry.

I'd been dicked at the last minute, and the Adjutant hadn't the heart to tell me to change back out of subaltern-beach-party-rig; checking damp frozen arms stores at 9pm of a Scottish summer, wearing flip-flops and shorts, is not calculated to get you into a good mood. This matters when you finally identify whose weapon is missing, you get to the party two hours late, sit down next to someone, and say "Ahhh, Pte G**** - this next question is very important. Where, exactly, is your SMG?"

The answer is a slight squeak, and the answer "I didn't think you were going to check them!"... and resulted in the first time I ever charged someone. Nice lass, at the time was going out with a Lt in 3BW, split with him and took up with my Pl Sgt, turns our her daughters go to the same school as our sons. Small world :)
 

offog

LE
Yup, this. As a frequently-dicked Orderly Officer (play stupid games, win stupid prizes) I remember the nausea involved in figuring out exactly which SMG owner hadn't returned their weapon to the armoury, on the night of the battalion all-ranks barbecue. Our battalion weekends would find the rifle companies with six or seven SMGs in their arms kote (drivers, signallers, chefs); but a full serial-number check of HQ Company involved about sixty of the damn things - bearing in mind that this was "who turned up for the weekend's training", not "all the weapons in the battalion".

Fortunately, we found it. I guessed correctly; someone missed armoury closing-time, and decided that they would just wrap it up in their sleeping bag and head off for some drinking (big tick for Lt Gravelbelly, I was obviously learning). Doubly fortunately, they were still on-camp, and hadn't headed off downtown to the bright lights and excitement of Broughty Ferry.

I'd been dicked at the last minute, and the Adjutant hadn't the heart to tell me to change back out of subaltern-beach-party-rig; checking damp frozen arms stores at 9pm of a Scottish summer, wearing flip-flops and shorts, is not calculated to get you into a good mood. This matters when you finally identify whose weapon is missing, you get to the party two hours late, sit down next to someone, and say "Ahhh, Pte G**** - this next question is very important. Where, exactly, is your SMG?"

The answer is a slight squeak, and the answer "I didn't think you were going to check them!"... and resulted in the first time I ever charged someone. Nice lass, at the time was going out with a Lt in 3BW, split with him and took up with my Pl Sgt, turns our her daughters go to the same school as our sons. Small world :)
As we are talking SMGs and this is slightly relevant.

SectComd collects his rife for exercise then puts it safe to go off to B/fast then off to the vehicle park with all his kit to load up the 432s with the rest of the coy. All loaded up and off we go to the rail loading yard and off to Soltau. About 24hrs latter all set up and O group called. After looking for his rifle and accepting that the troops are pissing about it dawns on him that his rifle is still on his bed in his bunk with the curtains closed. Smith give me your SMG (Smith is the 432 driver and so does not run around doing odd stuff and for many drivers the SMG may never leave the 432) and off he goes to the O group. Nothing said as it is quite common for troops doing odd jobs to grab the SMG as the driver does not need it.

He manages to do this for a number of days till the OC said "Cpl Snoggrass why are you not carrying your rifle?" After much ado it comes out. Phone call to the guard comd and prowler sent to look through window to confirm the rifle is still on the bed. If his vehicle had an L37 turret he could have gotten away with it as the gunner does not dismount but is issued with a rifle.

So there would be an extra 43+ SMGs in a mech Bn because of all the drivers.

That link that @itchy300 posted has some glaring errors in it particularly concerning vehicles and one mag per weapon would be held by the CQMS for replem to whoever needed it. Also his time line for and understanding of the introduction for fire teams. I also don't think the 84 was issued on light role Bns one per section only in mech Bns.
 

itchy300

Old-Salt
As we are talking SMGs and this is slightly relevant.

SectComd collects his rife for exercise then puts it safe to go off to B/fast then off to the vehicle park with all his kit to load up the 432s with the rest of the coy. All loaded up and off we go to the rail loading yard and off to Soltau. About 24hrs latter all set up and O group called. After looking for his rifle and accepting that the troops are pissing about it dawns on him that his rifle is still on his bed in his bunk with the curtains closed. Smith give me your SMG (Smith is the 432 driver and so does not run around doing odd stuff and for many drivers the SMG may never leave the 432) and off he goes to the O group. Nothing said as it is quite common for troops doing odd jobs to grab the SMG as the driver does not need it.

He manages to do this for a number of days till the OC said "Cpl Snoggrass why are you not carrying your rifle?" After much ado it comes out. Phone call to the guard comd and prowler sent to look through window to confirm the rifle is still on the bed. If his vehicle had an L37 turret he could have gotten away with it as the gunner does not dismount but is issued with a rifle.

So there would be an extra 43+ SMGs in a mech Bn because of all the drivers.

That link that @itchy300 posted has some glaring errors in it particularly concerning vehicles and one mag per weapon would be held by the CQMS for replem to whoever needed it. Also his time line for and understanding of the introduction for fire teams. I also don't think the 84 was issued on light role Bns one per section only in mech Bns.

Yeah no doubt you're right, the site seems to focus more on ww2 orbats but I can't confirm the accuracy of those either. Any good resources for orbats? I stumbled across it while looking for the scale of clansman issue to light role battalions
 

offog

LE
Yeah no doubt you're right, the site seems to focus more on ww2 orbats but I can't confirm the accuracy of those either. Any good resources for orbats? I stumbled across it while looking for the scale of clansman issue to light role battalions
You may find what you are looking for here.


Google may have a hissfit when you try to link to the site.
 

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