Blank ammo in WW2 ?

#1
Walking the dogs tonight in the "drought" that was falling like stair-rods I went well off the beaten track and came across some obvious fox holes and small slit trenches that i would think date back to WW2 .
I know that the Canadians were in the area pre D Day and also that an emergency airstrip was also very close by , the airstrip was little more than a flat area with PSP - think it had two aircraft land on it in total .
A quick root around found a few blank .303 case's .... question is did they use blank ammo back then in training ? another thing is they seem not to be made out of the normal brass but 70 years of being on or in acidic soil may account for this , currently have two sitting in some vinegar and another two in Coke to see if I can read anything from the bottom of the case's , it would be logical that the area was used pre D Day as a training ground for the Canadians as they had a camp nearby and if you know where to look the ablutions can still be found in the woods , I have also picked up Sherman track links and also another unidentified center-guide track link from the same area.
 
#2
My money would be on it having been used by the Cadets at some time after, the kiddy winkles were still cutting about with No.4's as late as the 90's. Most WWII training being done live to get the fear out of them.
 
#3
That was my thoughts but I know the area well and am fairly sure that post D Day it had little or no use by the army , my Dad was a boy back then but still remembers being thrown sweets and being given gum by the Canadians and also how thay all suddenly packed up and left overnight on the 5 june , he reckons it was most strange but also that the sky was full of aircraft towing gliders when he helped his dad get the cows in to milk at dawn on the 6th .
Many local rumours of stuff being buried or chucked in ponds as the Canadians left ...... even more hours spent by a certain young boy looking for it in the 80's
 
#4
Yep, we used blanks for training. Would have been slightly costly in men and ammo to be blatting live rounds all over the place.

The Germans used blanks with wooden tips. These were purely a training aid. The Yanks, sometimes had a felt wad in the end, or just cimped it off.
 
#5
Not so sure there Buzz.

Blank ammo has been around for as long as live - even Balliste rounds for launching rifle grenades and 'not to be used as blanks', were in use as soon as they developed rifle launched grenades. Wooden 'Bulleted blank' for auto weapons were common in WW2 for training and newspapers used to print 'war crime' stories about the enemy using them to cause terrible wounds.

The Bren has a special barrell with a half blocked flash eliminator (which caused flying splinters) for bulleted blank, so the weapon would fire and cycle as normal - no doubt other countries used a similar system.

I see no reason why even troops in training during WW2 would not use blanks at some stage? ISTBC though.
 
#8
Blank has always been issued as an alternate to ball, even in the days of muskets...!

In the past, it was often made from out of spec ball ammuniton by removing the projectile. The Snider and Martini Henry had the same blank round.

On the introduction of the .303 there were a number of varitions of blank. The intially they had dummy bullets fo that they would feed properly from magazines, however these were abandoned when it was discovered that blank made by just crimping over the end of a standard case would feed just as well, and there was less chance of mistaking them for ball.

Various forms of bulleted blank with either solid wooden or metal dust filled wooden bullets were issued for use with machine guns. The Vickers Maxim, being a recoil operated weapon, needed something to come out of the end of the barrel to make it cycle! Both the Vickers and the Bren were supposed to be fitted with a shredder barrel to break up the projectiles, but would work without them..!

The 7.62 blank had to be manufactured from scratch, and also had to be profiled to make it feed properly.. same with the 5.56 blank. As all our current weapons are gas operated, there is no longer a need for bulleted blank as you can make the action cycle by putting a restricter on the muzzle..
 
#10
HE117, when we used blank 303 in the cadets, in the 70s it was found that 'doctoring' the magazine feed on the No 4 enabled rapid fire with blanks, as the blunter blanks had a tendency to jam if the feed lips weren't spread a bit. Bulleted blank was rarely seen, too dangerous for the tiny tots I suppose.

In the closing firefight in the film 'The man who would be king' one or two of the extras blatting blanks off can clearly be seen dealing with jams.
 
#11
HE117, when we used blank 303 in the cadets, in the 70s it was found that 'doctoring' the magazine feed on the No 4 enabled rapid fire with blanks, as the blunter blanks had a tendency to jam if the feed lips weren't spread a bit. Bulleted blank was rarely seen, too dangerous for the tiny tots I suppose.

In the closing firefight in the film 'The man who would be king' one or two of the extras blatting blanks off can clearly be seen dealing with jams.
Yup.. bulleted blank was only supposed to be issued for MG..

Previous attempts at producing profiled .303 blank were either too expensive or dangerous...
 
#12
Here you go:






United Kingdom Manufactures of .303 Ammunition



*note the ^ is the broad arrow symbol


Birmingham Metals and Muntions Co Ltd., Birmingham. Headstamps Include B,J,M, or N This company was originaly formed in 1897 and was a wholy owned subsidiary of Nobels explosive company. The company also owned another ammunition plant that was aquired in 1907 at Waltham Abbey, Essex. Birmingham metals had ceased manufacture of ammunition by 1920 with the assets of the company being aquired in 1918 by Explosives Trades, Ltd. which was soon renamed Nobel Indusries. The new company had been founded to combine most of the explosive and ammunition interests of the many seperate companies operating in Britan at that time. Nobel Industries was to become part of the new giant Imperial Chemicals Industries Ltd when it was formed in 1926. The B in some of the mark designations should not be confused with the B by itself. B as is BVIIZ indicates incendiary ammunition not that it was manufactured by Birmingham metals. The types of ammo that were produced here were: Armour Piercing Mks VII.P, VII.W amd VII, Blackpowder Mk 2 Ball, Cordite Mks 2,4,5,6 and 7 Ball, Nitro-cellulose Mk 7Z Ball, Short Range Practice Ball, Bulleted Blank Mk 6, Ballistite H Mk 1 Cartridge Rifle Grenade, D Mk 6 Drill, Drill Mk 3, Premark 6 and Mk 6 Dummy, Explosive PSA Mk 2 (VILLAA), Experimental Piercing Ammunition and BIK(VILK) Mk 1 Incendiary.


Blanch & Sons of Fenchurch St, LondonHeadstamp Blanch J. This company made dummy rounds with a crimped base and a one piece tinplate case and bullet in 1915.


British Munitions Co. Ltd, Millwall London, Headstamp BM, Company is believed to have manufactured only the Blackpowder Mk2 .303 Ball rounds from 1890.


Crompton Parkinson Ltd, Guiseley, Yorkshire. 1939-1945 Headstamp was CP Although filling took place at Doncaster. This factory was set up as part of the WWII war emergency expansion plan. Cartridges that are known to be made here between 1940 and 1944 are, the Armour Piercing W Mk 1 and Cordite Mk 7 Ball.


Crompton Parkinson Ltd, Doncaster, Yorkshire. 1939-1945. Headstamp C-P. This company was already in existence but unconnected with ammunition manufacture when WWII broke out. It was selected to produce small arms ammunition as part of the war emergency expansion plans.Cartridges that are known to be made here between 1940 and 1944 are, the Armour Piercing W Mk 1 and W Mk 1 Special, Cordite Mk 7 Ball and an experimental Armour Piercing in 1942.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Eley Brothers, Edmonton, London, Headstamp E. This factory was in operation from 1828 through 1919. During WWi they were known to produce in excess of 209 million .303 Mk 7 cartridges. They were also known to produce the following types of ammunition in .303: Armour piercing Mk VII.W, Cordite Mks 1,2,4,6, and 7 Ball, Nitro-cellulose Mk 7Z ball, Short Range Practice (Gaudet) Ball, Ballistite Mk 1 Cartridge Rifle Grenade, Ballistite H Mk 1Z Cartridge Rifle Grenade, Drill Mk3 and Expedient, Explosive Pomeroy Mk 1, PSA Mk 1, PSA (VII.A) Mk 1, PSA Mk2 and PSA (VII.AA) Mk 2, Incendiary BIK (VII.K) Mk 1, RL Tracer Mk 1, Tracer SPK Mk VII.T and SPG (VII.G) Mk 1Z.


Greenwood and Batley, Leeds. 1914-1958. Headstamp G & GB.They had a filling factory at Abby Wood and later during WWII was a filling factory at Farnham with the headstamp GBF. It is important to note that the Headstamp code G that denotes the manufacturer should not be confused with G that indicates a tracer as in GIV. During WWI this firm produced over 705 million Mk 7 cartridges. They were known to produce the following cartridges in .303: Blackpowder Mk2 Ball, Cordite Mks2,4,5,6 and 7 Ball, Match Ball, Nitro-cellulose Mk 7Z Ball, Bulleted Blank Mk 6, Drill Mk 6 and 9, Dummy Mk 5 and Proof OSP.


Grenfell and Accles Ltd, Perry Barr, Birmingham Headstamp GA. This company formed in the early 1890's and aquired the Holford Works of the National Arms and Ammunition Company and was in existance for a short period of time. They wre known to have manufactured Mk 2 Blackpowder Ball .303 cartridges from 1891 - 1896.


Government Cartridge Factory No 1, Blackheat, Staffs., Headstamp G18F1 or C18F1. This factory was built in 1916 and was run on behald of the govenment by Birmingham Metal and Munitions Co.. .303 cartridge porduction began in early 1918 and ended late 1918 when the factory ceased production altogether. This foctory was known to have produced only the Nitro -cellulose Mk 7Z Ball Cartridge.


Government Cartridge Factory No 3, Blackpole Worcestershire., Headstamp G..F3 or C..F3. This factory was built in 1916 and was run on behald of the govenment by Kings Norton Metal Co... .303 cartridge porduction began late in 1918 the factory ceased production altogether in early 1919. This foctory was known to have produced only the Nitro -cellulose Mk 7Z Ball Cartridge and SPG Tracer (VIII G).


Halls Telegraph Co Burghfield. Headstamps BD These are not likely to exist in large numbers


Imperial Chemical Industries, Kynoch factory at Standish. Headstamp is K2 1939-1945. This factory was set up as part of the WWII emergency plans and produced its first complete .303 rounds in October 1940. They produced .303 cartridges in W Mk1 Special Armour Piercing, Cordite Mk 7 Ball, Shot Cartridge, Tracer G Mk2,3 and 6.


Imperial Chemical Industries Kynoch factory at Yeading, Hayes, Middlesex. Headstamp K4 1939-1945 This factory was also set up as part of the WWII emergency expansion plans. Cartridge cases were being produced by late 1940 but the ball bullets were still being imported into the factory in1941. They Produced .303 cartridges in Cordite Mk 7 Ball, Tracer G Mk 2,3,4,5 and 6.


Imperial Chemical Industries Kynoch factory at Kidderminster, Worcestershire. Headstamp K5. 1939-1945 Set up as part of the WWII emergency expansion plans. They produced .303 cartridges in W Mk1 Armour Piercing, Cordite Mk 7 Ball, Incendiary B Mk 7Z, Tracer G Mk2,3 and 6.


Kings Norton Metal Co. Headstamp KN 1890 - 1919. The company was formed in1890 at Kings Norton. It had its own rolling mills and had a loading plant at Abbey Wood in Kent. Cases were made at Birmingham and sent to be loaded and assembled at Abby Wood, which was next to Woolwich Arsenal. They were known to have produced cartridges in Armour Piercing VII.F, VII.FZ, and VII.W; Cordite Mks 2,4,5,6, and 7 Ball; Match Ball; Nitro-cellulose Mk 7Z; Blank Codite Mk 5; Bulleted Blank Mk 6; Drill Mk3 and Mk 3 expedient; Mk 5 Dummy; Explosive RTS(VII.R) Mk 2, Incendary BIK(VII.K) Mk1; Incendiary Buckingham (VII.B) and B Mk 3; Tracer SPG Mk VIIG mk 1 and Mk 1Z; Experimental RTT Explosive Cartridge; Experimental Blank [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Cartridges[/FONT].

Kynoch & Co, Witton, Birmingham. Headstamp GKB, K, or KYNOCH. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]This firm was first formed by George Kynoch at Witton in 1862 as a manufacturer of percussion caps. It was changed to a limited company in 1884 as G. Kynoch & Co Ltd and by then was manufacturing metallic ammunition. A further reorganisation and expansion followed in 1889 when George Kynoch was ousted from the management and this then culminated in a further change of title to Kynoch Ltd in 1897. During the period ending with the 1914-18 war Kynoch, which by then was the largest of the British commercial ammunition manufacturers, owned rolling mills at Witton; at Lodge Road, Birmingham and at Eyre Street, Birmingham. At various times it had propellant factories at Arklow, County Durham, making cordite; at Warsboro Dale, Yorkshire, making blackpowder and at Kynochtown, Stanford Le Hope, Essex, making smokeless powder. In addition to these plants the original cap production was maintained at Witton. Later, effective tracer and incendiary composition operations were also carried out at Witton. After the war in 1918 Kynoch Ltd, in common with most other British small arms ammunition manufacturers, was merged into Explosives Trades Ltd, later to become Nobel Industries. In 1926 when Nobel Industries became part of the new Imperial Chemical Industries, the old Kynoch factory at Witton was retained as the ammunition centre as part of the Metal Group within ICI. The propellant interests being concentrated mainly at Ardeer within the Nobel Division of ICI. In 1962 the Metals Division of ICI was reorganised as a separate company known as Imperial Metal Industries (Kynoch) Ltd. During WW1 Kynoch produced in excess of 2,373 million .303 cartridges. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The following .303 cartridges are known to have been produced by Kynoch: [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Armour Piercing Mks VII.S, VII.P, VII.W, W Mk 1 and W Mk 1Z; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Ball, Blackpowder Mk 2; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Ball, Cordite Mks 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Ball, Match; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Ball, Nitro-cellulose Mks 7Z and 8Z; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Ball, Short Range Practice; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Ball, Nitro-cellulose Mk 8z with Aluminium Case; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Blank, Ballistite L Mk 9Z; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Blank, Blackpowder Mk 2; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Blank, Cordite Mks 4 and 5; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Blank, Nitro-cellulose L Mk 5Z ; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bulleted Blank, Blackpowder Mk 1; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bulleted Blank, Mk 6; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bulleted Blank, L Mk 7; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bulleted Blank, L Mk 10; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Cartridge Line Thrower H Mk 2 ; C[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]artridge Rifle Grenade, Ballistite H Mk 1Z; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Drill, D Mk 6, D Mk 8, D Mk 9 and D Mk 10; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Dummy, Drill Mk 4; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Greener Triplex Cartridge; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Incendiary Buckingham Mk VII.B; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Incendiary B Mk 3, B Mk 4Z*, B Mk 6, B Mk 6Z, ; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]B Mk 7 and B Mk 7Z ; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Practice Tracer PG Mk 1; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Proof Q Mk 3; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Tracer, Self Destroying; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Tracer Mk VII.G, G Mk 1, G Mk 2, G Mk 2Z, G Mk 3, ; T[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]racer G Mk 3Z, G Mk 4, G Mk 5, G Mk 6, G Mk 6Z,; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]G Mk 7, G Mk 8 and G Mk 8Z; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Triple Ball Experimental (1918); [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]180 gr Jacketed soft point sporting ammunition; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Streamlined Pattern 1927 Match Cartridge; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Streamlined Pattern 1936-37 Match Cartridge; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Streamlined Pattern 1947 Match Cartridge; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bulleted blanks for Bren, Lewis and Vickers; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]French Drill Cartridge; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Experimental armour piercing; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Experimental semi-armour piercing; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Experimental armour piercing tracer; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Experimental armour piercing incendiary (1956); [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Experimental tank piercing (1940); [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Experimental Tracers; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Experimental Observation; [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Experimental Bulleted Blanks
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Lorenz Ammunition and Ordinance Company, Millwall, London. Headstamp[/FONT] L. Known to exist .303 cartridges in Mk 2, Black powder from 1887 and 1890. Cartridges are often confused with the Ludlow Co who has the same headstamp and operated during the same time period and produced the same cartridge.


Ludlow and Co, Wolverhampton, Staffs. Headstamp L. Known to exist .303 cartridges in Mk 2, Black powder from 1887 and 1890. Cartridges are often confused with the Lorenz Co who has the same headstamp and operated during the same time period and produced the same cartridge.


Maxim Arms Co., London, Headstamp MAXIM. The cases were made by BSA for Maxim machine guns in the 1890's and .303s were produced as Cordite Mk2 ball only.


Nobel Explosives Ltd, Manchester. Headstamp M. Known to have produced .303 cartridges from 1914-1918 in Cordite Mk 7 Ball and PSA Mk 2 Explosive.


Raleigh Cycle Co, Nottingham. Headstamp RC or RH Know to have produced .303 cartridges 1941-1945 in Cordite Mk 7 Ball.


Richard Threlfall and Sons. Headstamp RTS. Only explosive ant-zeplin cartridges.


Royal Ordnance Factory, Blackpole, Worchester.Headstamps include B^E or BE This factory was part of the WWII was emergency expansion plan and was situated at Blackpole on the site of the earlier Government Cartridge Factory No 3 of 1916. Initially ICI Ltd were to have operated this plant but they were advised in 1940 of the change in plans and the factory was run as a Royal Ordinance Factory by the Ministry of Supply. This factory made and marked cases but filling was carried out at the Royal Ordinance Factory Swynnerton Staffs. Cartridges produced at Blackpole from 1941 to 1945 were, Cordite Mk7 Ball, Ballistite H Mk 1 Z Cartridge Rifle Grenade, U Mk 5 Dummy, B Mk 6Z and B Mk 7Z Incendiary, and G Mks 2,3 and 4 Tracer.


Royal Ordinance Factory, Hirwaun, South Wales.Headstamp H^N. 1939-1945. This factory was set up as part of the WWII war emergency expansion plan. IT was involved in the production of .303 cartridges in only a very limited way, and was known to produce only the Tracer G Mk 2(in cases dated 1943 and 1944)


Royal Ordinance Factory, Radway Green, Cheshire. Headstamp RG or ^ 1939-1973 This factory was part of the WWII emergency expansion plan being situated near Crewe and is still in operation. Production of the .303 cartridge commenced in 1940 and the last known production of this cartridge was in 1973 with Mk7Z Ball and Dummy Drill cartridges. Initial Radway Green production used a single arrow as the head stamp code and this was replaced in 1942 by the RG code. They were known to have produced the .303 cartridges in the following: Armour Piercing W Mk 1, W Mk 1 Special and W Mk 1Z, Cordite Mk 7 Ball, Nitro-cellulose Mks 7Z and 8Z Ball; Ballistite L Mk 9Z Blank; Cordite L Mk 5 Blank; Nitro-cellulose L Mk 5Z; Nitro-cellulose L Mk 10Z Bulleted Blank; Cordite H Mk 2, 4 and 4z Cartridge Rifle Grenade; D Mk 10 Drill; Dummy Drill 1973 Pattern; U Mk 5 Dummy; Incendiary B Mk 6, 6Z, 7 and 7Z,; Q Mk 3 Proof; Tracer G Mk 2 and 8.


Royal Ordinance Factory, Spennymoor, Durham.Headstamps SR or ^^ 1939-1945 This factory was part of the WWII emergency expansion plan. It began production of .303 ammunition in 1941 initially with the head stamp code of two arrows replacing these in 1942 with the code SR. The Spennymoor ammunition was filled at the Royal Ordinance Factory, Aycliffe, Durham. They were known to produce th .303 cartridge in Ball Mk 7 and 8Z, Blank L Mk 5 and Incendiary B Mk 6, B Mk 6Z, B Mk 7 and B Mk 7Z


Royal Ordinance Factory, Steaton Headstamp ST


Royal Ordinance Factory, Swynnerton Headstamp SWN stamp after March 1, 1946


Royal Ordinance Facotry, Thorpe Arch, Boston Spa Headstamp TH


Royal Laboratory, Woolwich Arsenal, Kent. 1670- 1957 Headstamp R^L. Woolwich Arsenal of which the Royal Laboratory was only a part, is situated in South East London on the River Thames. The Arsenal dates from 1670 and has manufactured many different items of warlike stores for the armed forces. Ammunition was made at Woolwich long before the adoption of the .303 cartridge in 1889. Ammunition production ceased completely at Woolwich in 1957, the last known production of .303 ammunition there being Mk 7 Ball. The Woolwich site apart from containing all the supportive facilities for the research, design, development, inspection and testing of ammunition also included an extensive range complex on the Plumpstead Marches. In addition there was a filling area nearby in the vicinity of Abby Wood.They were known to have produced the the following .303 cartridges sice the adoption of the .303: Rmour Piercing Mks VII.S,P,PZ,W,WZ and W Mk 1; W mk 1 Special and W Mk 1Z; Blackpowder Mks 1 and 2 Ball; Cordite Mks 1,2,2*,3,4,5,6 and 7 Ball; Match Ball; Mitro-cellulose Mks 7z, 8z & 7z RC(reduced charge) Ball; Short Range Practice Cordite Mks 1,2,3 and 4 Ball; Short Range Practice (Gaudet) Ball; Blackpowder Mks 2 and 3 Blank; Cordite Mks 2,3,4,5 Blank; Cordite Mks 1,6 Bulleted Blank; COrdite L Mk 5 Blank; L MK 7 and L Mk 10Z Bulleted Blank; Cordite Mks 1 and 2 Cartridge Rifle Grenade; Cordite H Mk 2 Cartridge Rifle Grenade; Ballistite H Mk 1Z Cartridge Rifle Grenade; Blackpowder E Mk 1T Cartridge Discharger; Magazine Rifle Mk 1 and 2 Drill; Drill D Mk 6,6*,7,8 and 9; U Mk 5 Dummy; Dummy Drill Mks 3,4,5,6; Dummy Version of Explosive R Mk 3*; Inspectors Dummy Mk1,2,3,4 and 5; Explosive R Mk 1,2,3,3*; Incendiary Buckingham (VII.B) B Mks 1,2Z, 4,5,6,6Z and 7; Instructional Mk 6; Cordite Mk 1 Machine Gun Blank; Machine Gun Dummy Mks 1 and 2; Observing O Mk 1; Cordite Proof Mk 1, Mk 2, Mk 3, Q Mk 3, Q Mk 4, and Q Mk 5. Shot Cartridges; RL Tracer Mk 1; Tracer SPK(VII.t) and SPK(VII.TZ); Tracer SPG(VII.G) Mk1 and SPG (VII.G) Mk 1 Z; Tracer G Mk 1, G MK 1 Special, G Mk 2, G Mk 3 and G Mk 4; and the following experimental rounds: Steel Anti Foulin Bulleted Rounds, Armour Piercing Tracer(1917-1918), Armour Piercing Cartridges, bulleted blanks, Explosive, RTS and RTT Cartridges, Grenade Launcing Cartridges and Lachrymatory Cartridges.


Rudge Whitworth Cycles, Nottingham Headstamp R..W. 1915-1918 This company is the only new commercial ammunition manufacture put into business by the government as a result of demand in the Great War. They recieved thier first contract for the supply of MK 7 Ball ammunition in 1915 and continued to produce this untiol the end of 1918 at their new factory at Tyseley. Ther were know to have produced the .303 cartridges form 1915 - 1918 in the following: Cordite Mk 7 Ball, Drill Mk 5 Dummy; Incendiary Buckingham(Vii.B), B Mk 1, B Mk 2Z and Tracer SPG(VII.G) Mk 1Z.


T. Bland & Sons, London. Headstamp T.BLAND & SONS. This firm loaded commercial .303 cartirdges in ball and sporting configurations.
[/FONT]

 
#13
HE117, when we used blank 303 in the cadets, in the 70s it was found that 'doctoring' the magazine feed on the No 4 enabled rapid fire with blanks, as the blunter blanks had a tendency to jam if the feed lips weren't spread a bit.
Well, that was very ingenious of you - in my recollection they would hardly feed at all - using the SLR with blank was an absolute revelation.
 
#14
Well, that was very ingenious of you - in my recollection they would hardly feed at all - using the SLR with blank was an absolute revelation.
There were those who had the way of it, the ones that were adapted were very slick indeed, funnily enough they tended to be found in the older boy's hands on excercises, and I don't recall them playing up on the ranges either.

One of the reasons I recall being given for the eventual withdrawal of the No 4 was the lack of blank ammo, even Pakistan didn't reckon it worthwhile tooling up for a few million rounds for the cadets.
 
#15
I recall firing wooden tipped blanks from a Bren in 1991 while in the Cadets in Longmoor, we had to have safety DS just like today's live firing exercises. I think the barrel had a splitter welded inside to break up the bullet as it exited. Our barrels were painted white so there was no mix ups.
 
G

goatrutar

Guest
#16
Were the UK 7.62 blank rounds made from brass? Down here the SLR blanks were made from black plastic. The 7.62 rounds for the M60 were made from brass as the 60s action was a bit harsh on the plastic rounds.
 
#17
I thought Cadets used to use football rattles in lieu of blanks.
 
#18
I thought Cadets used to use football rattles in lieu of blanks.
There were rattles issued, dated '41-50ish' they filled one '37' ammo pouch, the handle projected, sideways, from the top and was meant to be twisted in situ giving a 'burst' of 3-4 clicks to simulate controlled fire. Or it could be held over the head and swung in the sf role at a rate of fire likely to melt the Bren's barrel, with an ammo consumption that John Wayne would have been proud of.
 
#19
I recall firing wooden tipped blanks from a Bren in 1991 while in the Cadets in Longmoor, we had to have safety DS just like today's live firing exercises. I think the barrel had a splitter welded inside to break up the bullet as it exited. Our barrels were painted white so there was no mix ups.
Are you sure of your dates old chap?

There was no .303 bulleted blank in service from the mid 70s onwards, in fact it was pretty rare even in the 60s...

Shredder barrels had yellow tips not white - white barrels were DP and could/should not have been fired even with blank. All the in-service .303 Brens had been withdrawn, even from the Cadets by (I think) the mid 70s, there were certainly none on the official books by 1990.

You have either:

1. Got your dates seriously wrong.
2. Someone in the cadets had an illegal .303 BREN and a stash of (equally illegal) bulleted blank which is possible, but unlikely..
3. You were working with the Irish Army Cadets (again unlikely at Longmore...)
4. You were looking at an L4 LMG, which fired standard 7.62 blank (not bulleted) with a BF barrel.
5. You are drunk.
6. You are indulging in an extreme bout of bovine scatology..

Charitably can I suggest 4, however you may wish to correct me..?
 
#20
Were the UK 7.62 blank rounds made from brass? Down here the SLR blanks were made from black plastic. The 7.62 rounds for the M60 were made from brass as the 60s action was a bit harsh on the plastic rounds.
Yup...

We did procure some plastic short range 7.62 for use in CQB ranges, but never got into plastic blank much..

Something to do with keeping Radway Green going..!
 
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