Blairs Confused State Of Mind & Ignorance of History

#1
Foreign Affairs Jan/Feb 2007

To me, the most remarkable thing about the Koran is how progressive it is. I write with great humility as a member of another faith. As an outsider, the Koran strikes me as a reforming book, trying to return Judaism and Christianity to their origins, much as reformers attempted to do with the Christian church centuries later.


The Koran is inclusive. It extols science and knowledge and abhors superstition. It is practical and far ahead of its time in attitudes toward marriage, women, and governance.


Under its guidance, the spread of Islam and its dominance over previously Christian or pagan lands were breathtaking. Over centuries, Islam founded an empire and led the world in discovery, art, and culture. The standard-bearers of tolerance in the early Middle Ages were far more likely to be found in Muslim lands than in Christian ones
So now you know the Prime Minister has never heard of General Gordon and his difficulties with Muhammad Ahmad ibn as Sayyid Abd Allah in Sudan in 1885.......................a man whose Mahdiyya (Mahdist regime) imposed traditional Islamic laws which would be implemented by Islamic courts headed by various Islamic imams, in accordace with the view of a barely articulated Islamic Republic.

The new Sharia courts enforced Islamic law and the Mahdi's own commands. He also authorized the burning of lists of pedigrees and books of law and theology because of their association with the old regime and because he believed that they accentuated tribalism at the expense of religious unity.

In accordance with Islamic dogma The Mahdi modified Islam's five pillars to support the doctrine that loyalty to him was essential to true belief. The Mahdi also added the declaration and Muhammad Ahmad is the Mahdi of God and the representative of His Prophet to the recitation of the shahada. Moreover, service in the jihād replaced the hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) as a duty incumbent on the faithful. Zakat (almsgiving) became the tax paid to the state. The Mahdi justified these reforms as responses to instructions conveyed to him by God in visions.




I suppose this did not seem familiar to The Artful Dodger as he made his way to Shangri-La over in Miami to see if Robin BG wanted to invest in MoD housing
for a tax write-off
 
#2
It was clear from Day 1 that Bliar had neither knowledge of nor interest in history.
The reason: he was not in it.
He will be now! He will be recorded, without doubt or dear old Sven's protestations, as the most disastrous and incompetent Prime Minister in nearly two hundred years. Ooops! said that 'H' word again.
 
#3
I think the period known as the Middle Ages came to an end in the 1500’s. General Gordon’s demise was a long time after that. I think he (Blair) was probably referring to the period of the crusades or possibly the Islamic occupation of the Iberian Peninsular?
 
#4
Rumrunner is right. Blair is referring to Islam in the Quran and the Middle Ages, not Sudan in the late 19th-centure.

I think it is accurate to say (as Blair does) that the Quran promoted equality and was more protective of women's rights than the tribal norms of 7th-century Arabia.

Likewise, Blair is right in that most historians of Muslim Spain would agree that, compared with medieval Europe, Islamic Spain was unusually tolerant of its religious minorities.

The Mahdiyya in the Sudan situates itself (in Blair's terms) in the radical reaction to Western imperialism which was inspired by Wahabi ideology and espoused a much harsher, more fundamentalist brand of Islam.

Unfortunately (on this narrow point and disregarding the rest of his speech) Blair's history is accurate if simplistic.
 
#5
I think the period known as the Middle Ages came to an end in the 1500’s
I guess life in Constantinople must have been simply divine back in 1453 then ?

I hope Muslims will be as understanding when we take it back
 
#7
Since the history of the Middle Ages barely affects me these days, I was more drawn towards his more contemporary musings. Take his opening paragraph:

Tony Blair in [i]Foreign Affairs[/i] said:
Our response to the September 11 attacks has proved even more momentous than it seemed at the time. That is because we could have chosen security as the battleground. But we did not. We chose values. We said that we did not want another Taliban or a different Saddam Hussein. We knew that you cannot defeat a fanatical ideology just by imprisoning or killing its leaders; you have to defeat its ideas.
Let's just recap then what's happened in the real world, as opposed to his fantasy land...

1. Not bothered about another Taliban, the original one is still going strong.
2. A different Sadam is perhaps the only solution in Iraq.
3. Their ideas have been strengthened by our kinetic methods and the US's illegal imprisonement of its alleged adversaries.

Then in his second paragraph:

Tony Blair in [i]Foreign Affairs[/i] said:
In my view, the situation we face is indeed war, but of a completely unconventional kind, one that cannot be won in a conventional way. We will not win the battle against global extremism unless we win it at the level of values as much as that of force. We can win only by showing that our values are stronger, better, and more just than the alternative. That also means showing the world that we are evenhanded and fair in our application of those values. We will never get real support for the tough actions that may well be essential to safeguarding our way of life unless we also attack global poverty, environmental degradation, and injustice with equal vigor.
So why, pray tell, are HMG currently in the process of destroying the core values of British society?

Well done Tony, yet another piece of your mendacious, glory seeking wibble. :x
 
#9
With Turkey in the EU it is only natural that the Hagia Sophia will return to its original use.....................what other purpose could there be for having Turkey inside the EU ?
 
#10
Using the Koran as a style manual for living is dangerous. It has many contradictions in the text. See, amongst many other references (http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=ybr_bt&y=y&p=koran contradictions), http://www.carm.org/islam/Koran_contradictions.htm.
Fazlur Rahman, who was the Harold H. Swift Distinguished Service Professor of Islamic Thought at the University of Chicago wrote in his book Islam (1966) on the historic study of the Hadith. Summarising I. Goldziher's scientific study of the Hadith, he writes:
But his argument runs, since the corpus of the Hadith continued to swell in each succeeding generation, and since in each generation the material runs parallel to and reflects various and often contradictory doctrines of Muslim theological and legal schools, the final recorded product of the Hadith, which date from the 3rd/ 9th century [over 250 years after the death of the prophet], must be regarded as being on the whole unreliable as a source for the prophets own teaching and conduct (1979:44)
The same problems arise if one were to rely upon the Book as history. We have examples above where the Mahdi perverted the writings to his own ends. Without opening this thread into a general thing on religion, the Koran fulfils the same place in Muslim life as the Catechism of the Catholic Church does in the life of a Catholic – I Believe. End. No debate. The Koran is presented as truth and there can never be any departure from it's teachings as that would make one a kaffer. Unfortunately, the outside world has to intervene making it unsafe as a history or – dare I use the word in connection with him – an ethics primer for Blair.
 
#11
OldRedCap said:
The same problems arise if one were to rely upon the Book as history. We have examples above where the Mahdi perverted the writings to his own ends. Without opening this thread into a general thing on religion, the Koran fulfils the same place in Muslim life as the Catechism of the Catholic Church does in the life of a Catholic – I Believe. End. No debate. The Koran is presented as truth and there can never be any departure from it's teachings as that would make one a kaffer. Unfortunately, the outside world has to intervene making it unsafe as a history or – dare I use the word in connection with him – an ethics primer for Blair.
the same is equally true of the Bible. If you pick out the juicy bits you can justify holy war, armageddon, the Second Coming, etc. Or you can be boring and choose religion of love, peace and harmony.

same with Islam. You can selectively quote on jihad, takfir, apostasy. Or you can be a sufi and settle for the jihad of the soul, God's mercy and compassion and submission to the will of God.

your argument is against religion not against the Quran
 
#12
My ccomment re Koran was submitted in context of Blair's opinion (see opening post) "To me, the most remarkable thing about the Koran is how progressive it is. I write with great humility as a member of another faith. As an outsider, the Koran strikes me as a reforming book, trying to return Judaism and Christianity to their origins, much as reformers attempted to do with the Christian church centuries later"
 
#13
Voyager said:
With Turkey in the EU it is only natural that the Hagia Sophia will return to its original use.....................what other purpose could there be for having Turkey inside the EU ?
I'm not sure where you are going to with this Voyager? Like anyone else who has a PC, an internet search of what you mention could bring this up:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

As I understand it Turkey is our ally and has been for some time. So?
 
#14
Blair 'views' on the Koran are probably calculated fluff written up for him with view to having a particular effect on the readership rather than anything that resembles the opinion of the man known as Tony Blair.
 
#15
SLRboy said:
Blair 'views' on the Koran are probably calculated fluff written up for him with view to having a particular effect on the readership rather than anything that resembles the opinion of the man known as Tony Blair.
This is probably the only time I have ever agreed with you.

It won't happen again. :)
 
#16
Voyager said:
With Turkey in the EU it is only natural that the Hagia Sophia will return to its original use.....................what other purpose could there be for having Turkey inside the EU ?

I can't think of one.
The women are ugly and their beer's are crap.






Quack
 
#17
merkator said:
Since the history of the Middle Ages barely affects me these days, I was more drawn towards his more contemporary musings. Take his opening paragraph:

Tony Blair in [i]Foreign Affairs[/i] said:
Our response to the September 11 attacks has proved even more momentous than it seemed at the time. That is because we could have chosen security as the battleground. But we did not. We chose values. We said that we did not want another Taliban or a different Saddam Hussein. We knew that you cannot defeat a fanatical ideology just by imprisoning or killing its leaders; you have to defeat its ideas.
Let's just recap then what's happened in the real world, as opposed to his fantasy land...

1. Not bothered about another Taliban, the original one is still going strong.
2. A different Sadam is perhaps the only solution in Iraq.
3. Their ideas have been strengthened by our kinetic methods and the US's illegal imprisonement of its alleged adversaries.

Then in his second paragraph:

Tony Blair in [i]Foreign Affairs[/i] said:
In my view, the situation we face is indeed war, but of a completely unconventional kind, one that cannot be won in a conventional way. We will not win the battle against global extremism unless we win it at the level of values as much as that of force. We can win only by showing that our values are stronger, better, and more just than the alternative. That also means showing the world that we are evenhanded and fair in our application of those values. We will never get real support for the tough actions that may well be essential to safeguarding our way of life unless we also attack global poverty, environmental degradation, and injustice with equal vigor.
So why, pray tell, are HMG currently in the process of destroying the core values of British society?

Well done Tony, yet another piece of your mendacious, glory seeking wibble. :x
1)But not running a country - eh Merks?
2)Just like another Milosov...... Tito is the way forward in the Balkans?
3)What, pray tell, just are our 'kinetic methods'?


(Do You like the new 'single question mark' style :D )
 
#19
Sven said:
2)Just like another Milosov...... Tito is the way forward in the Balkans?
And what would be wrong with having another Tito, you capitalist pig? Remember - the sun only shines for half the day but Comrade Tito shines all night too. :p
 
#20
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Here’s a fascinating exchange between radio host Hugh Hewitt and Father Joseph Fessio, a student and friend of Pope Benedict XVI, about the pope’s views on the possibility of an Islamic Reformation:
[hr]
HH: Father Fessio, before the break, you were telling us that after the presentation at Castel Gandolfo by two scholars of Islam this summer with Benedict in attendance, as well as his former students, for the first time in your memory, the Pope did not allow his students to first comment and reserve comment, but in fact, went first. Why, and what did he say?
[hr]
JF: Well, the thesis that was proposed by this scholar was that Islam can enter into the modern world if the Koran is reinterpreted by taking the specific legislation, and going back to the principles, and then adapting it to our times, especially with the dignity that we ascribe to women, which has come through Christianity, of course. And immediately, the Holy Father, in his beautiful calm but clear way, said well,
[hr]
there’s a fundamental problem with that, because he said in the Islamic tradition, God has given His word to Mohammed, but it’s an eternal word. It’s not Mohammed’s word. It’s there for eternity the way it is. There’s no possibility of adapting it or interpreting it, whereas in Christianity, and Judaism, the dynamism’s completely different, that God has worked through His creatures. And so, it is not just the word of God, it’s the word of Isaiah, not just the word of God, but the word of Mark. He’s used His human creatures, and inspired them to speak His word to the world, and therefore by establishing a Church in which he gives authority to His followers to carry on the tradition and interpret it, there’s an inner logic to the Christian Bible, which permits it and requires it to be adapted and applied to new situations.
[hr]
I was...I mean, Hugh, I wish I could say it as clearly and as beautifully as he did, but that’s why he’s Pope and I’m not, okay? That’s one of the reasons. One of others, but his seeing that distinction when the Koran, which is seen as something dropped out of Heaven, which cannot be adapted or applied, even, and the Bible, which is a word of God that comes through a human community, it was stunning.
[hr]
HH: And so, is it fair to describe him as a pessimist about the prospect of modernity truly engaging Islam in the way modernity has engaged Christianity?
[hr]
JF: Well, the other way around.
HH: Yes. I meant that.
[hr]
JF: Yeah, that Christianity can engage modernity just like it did...the Jews did Egypt, or Christians did to Greece, because we can take what’s good there, and we can elevate it through the revelation of Christ in the Bible. But Islam is stuck. It’s stuck with a text that cannot be adapted, or even be interpreted properly.
[hr]
HH: And so the Pope is a pessimist about that changing, because it would require a radical reinterpretation of what the Koran is?
[hr]
JF: Yeah, which is it’s impossible, because it’s against the very nature of the Koran, as it’s understood by Muslims.

HH: And so, even the dialectic that was the Reformation is not possible within Islam?
[hr]
JF: No. And then a second thing which he did not say, but which I would have said, I might have said at the time, is that...and this is from a Catholic point of view, there’s no one to interpret the Koran officially. the Catholic Church has an official interpretor, which is the Holy Father with the bishops.
[hr]
HH: Right. Well, let me ask you then. If, in fact, that reformation within Islam is not possible in the eyes of the Pope, and the demographics do not change, as they are unlikely to change in Europe, the last time Christendom went under the waves, so to speak, in Europe, there were the monasteries, besieged as they were by the barbarians, sacked as they were by the Vikings, they endured.
[hr]
JF: Yeah.
[hr]
HH: That doesn’t happen in modernity, because of the technology of oppression. And you’ve just noted the reluctance of Islam to accept religious pluralism, or to embrace it and celebrate it.
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Good point from the Panzer Pope....
 

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