Bin Laden - simply a figurehead

#2
That was what the smart money thought. After the raid on his compound there seems to be more evidence that OBL was more central. What's certainly true was Osama was an aristocratic leader, tall, good looking, undoubtably brave, a pious man with fine classical Arabic and importantly a Saudi who fought (if briefly and ineffectively) with the Muhj against the 40th Army. Such fine figureheads are rare, he was irreplaceable.

AQ's operational head has been for some time Sayf al-‘Adl an Egyptian.

Zawahiri is the far/near enemy big thinker but his ideas may have passed their sell by date. He's also a lowly Egyptian who resembles Uncle Bulgaria from the Wombles. It seems he's been passed over for the leadership. He seems to all at sea judging by a recent ideologically lame eulogy for his emir. From FP Zawahiri speaks by Will McCants
...
Zawahiri's eulogy contains the expected language about bin Laden's status as a martyr and his glorious deeds. Two elements might raise eyebrows among some in the ultra-conservative Salafi section of his audience. One is his comparison of Bin Laden's death to that of Husayn, the grandson of the Prophet killed by government troops on the plains of Karbala. The comparison is apt given that both were killed in front of their families, but Zawahiri might have picked a different early Islamic martyr given that the death of Husayn (revered by Sunni and Shi'a Muslims alike) forms the emotional kernel of Shi'ism, which Salafis despise.

The second element that may raise Salafi eyebrows is Zawahiri's denunciation of the U.S. for burying bin Laden at sea, rather than putting him in a grave. Zawahiri notes the U.S. did this to deny Muslims a grave to visit and claims that "millions" of Muslims will now bury him in their hearts. That is a nice touch, but again a bit strange for the Salafis in his audience, who abhor grave visitation (they consider it idolatrous), and given that al-Qaeda's former Taliban hosts once made a habit of destroying shrines and gravesites. Both the comparison of bin Laden to Husayn and Zawahiri's lamentation that he has no grave goes beyond the normal jihadi eulogies for martyrs, and suggests that Zawahiri is attempting to raise bin Laden's status to that of a saint deserving of religious veneration. That rhetoric makes sense in Sufi and Shi'a circles but may be a bit jarring to al-Qaeda's more hardline supporters.
...
 
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pp0470

Guest
#3
Alib - I see I have a lot of reading still to do.

Would you agree that AQ is far from leaderless since OBL's assasination?

Or even that with an established ideology, a leaderless jihad is even more dangerous?

My point is that to achieve peace the killing of individual enemies will not work, and that only the addressing of the root causes and adjusting our interventionist foreign policy will.
 
#4
I still think that OBL served mostly as an example of US/NATO inability to catch terrorists, which would have been a very good morale booster for AQ. Taking him out proved that no one can hide forever.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
#5
Alib - I see I have a lot of reading still to do.

Would you agree that AQ is far from leaderless since OBL's assasination?

Or even that with an established ideology, a leaderless jihad is even more dangerous?

My point is that to achieve peace the killing of individual enemies will not work, and that only the addressing of the root causes and adjusting our interventionist foreign policy will.
I'd have opted for the far more nihilistic theory that they hate us and nothing we can do will cause the hard-core from trying to **** our shit up. Thig is AQ isn't the gargantuan underground organisation like SPECTRE and OLB wasn't Ernst Stavro Blofeld who'd skinned his cat and worn the remains as a prosthetic beard.

AQ is a franchise. OBL and the other top-bods skill was in selling that franchise to assorted Islamic terrorist organisations around the world and then providing training or managing the exchange of techniques to the various franchises in exchange for the franchises following head office's agenda when fighting the "Far Enemy". "Close Enemy" can be delt with purely by the branch manager it seems but the big internationals seemed to require int, planning and some logistics from various cells.

Screwing up the overall leadership by killing OBL (as alib suggested a perfect front-man for international islamic terrorism), neutralising al-Zawahri (the drummer that keeps the beat) and Sayf al-Adl (the band's tour manager that organises the gigs and time in the reccording studios) would pretty much cripple the Islamic terrorist movement as a global threat. Frankly the fundie nut-jobs spend FAR more time killing their fellow (apostate in their eyes) muslims than screwing with the West. Taking out the big-picture guys would probably result in the various franchise groups fragmenting and at worst (for us) not talking to each other and at best deciding to spend time killing the others for being treacherous, back-stabbing bastards thus FURTHER distracting them from ****ing our shit up.

Terrorism will always be with us. As long as its pin pricks, then in the grand scheme of things it doesn't mean much, particularly if the apparently bogged-down Arab Spring finally ripens into something tangible and thus drying up the fertile recruiting grounds of educated 20somethings living in relative poverty while some dodgy old bastard in a palace oppresses your family.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#6
That was what the smart money thought. After the raid on his compound there seems to be more evidence that OBL was more central. What's certainly true was Osama was an aristocratic leader, tall, good looking, undoubtably brave, a pious man with fine classical Arabic and importantly a Saudi who fought (if briefly and ineffectively) with the Muhj against the 40th Army. Such fine figureheads are rare, he was irreplaceable.

AQ's operational head has been for some time Sayf al-‘Adl an Egyptian.

Zawahiri is the far/near enemy big thinker but his ideas may have passed their sell by date. He's also a lowly Egyptian who resembles Uncle Bulgaria from the Wombles. It seems he's been passed over for the leadership. He seems to all at sea judging by a recent ideologically lame eulogy for his emir. From FP Zawahiri speaks by Will McCants
That's a pretty shallow analysis. Uncle Bulgaria kept an sinister (one of them was called Tobermory, so clearly Scotch) underground movement in the public eye and on prime time TV for several years. He may have looked like a harmless old gent pushing a rubbish agenda but ask yourself this: "What day do you put out your recycling bin and what will your local council do to you if you don't?".
 
#7
That's a pretty shallow analysis. Uncle Bulgaria kept an sinister (one of them was called Tobermory, so clearly Scotch) underground movement in the public eye and on prime time TV for several years. He may have looked like a harmless old gent pushing a rubbish agenda but ask yourself this: "What day do you put out your recycling bin and what will your local council do to you if you don't?".
FF, PP0470 wouldn't know as its on a Tuedsay and he has to collect his benefits and sign on that day so the Human Rights council get someone to put his recycle bag out for him. That gives him an opportunity to have a brew with other like minded KJ's to swap stories about British imperialism and American conniving to rule the world whilst looking out of the cafe window and laughing at imperialist invaders working to pay tax for his ****ing dole money.
 
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pp0470

Guest
#8
FF, PP0470 wouldn't know as its on a Tuedsay and he has to collect his benefits and sign on that day so the Human Rights council get someone to put his recycle bag out for him. That gives him an opportunity to have a brew with other like minded KJ's to swap stories about British imperialism and American conniving to rule the world whilst looking out of the cafe window and laughing at imperialist invaders working to pay tax for his ****ing dole money.
Wednesdays my signing day and it's a cup of fair trade hot choc at the rainbow vegitarian cafe - get your facts right (but only after you've paid your taxes and funded my life of lesiure), loser.
 
#9
For goodness sake if your going to spend time scrounging the dole then visit the library occasionaly, it is vegetarian.

Oops that made me look a **** when pointing out a spelling mistake !
 
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pp0470

Guest
#10
For goodness sake if your going to spend time scrounging the dole then visit the library occasionaly, it is vegetarian.

Oops that made me look a **** when pointing out a spelling mistake !
Opps, grammar police!

Assuming your a veteran (certainly an old fart), I take it you only left the Army once every squaddy could speel proparly

Anyway, back to intelligent debate...
 
#11
Opps, grammar police!

Assuming your a veteran (certainly an old fart), I take it you only left the Army once every squaddy could speel proparly

Anyway, back to intelligent debate...
Agreed old fart etc.

Now back to intelligent mass debate

OBL was a ****, is that intelligent enough.
 
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pp0470

Guest
#12
Agreed old fart etc.

Now back to intelligent mass debate

OBL was a ****, is that intelligent enough.
Ok, we agree that OBL was a **** too, but has killing him bought us any closer to living in peace?

Last time I looked the security threat was still Heightened.
 
#13
He's a figurehead for a submarine now.
 
#14
Ok, we agree that OBL was a **** too, but has killing him bought us any closer to living in peace?

Last time I looked the security threat was still Heightened.
It always will be, eternal vigilance is the price of democracy. Someone somewhere will always hate no matter what utopia we try to create.
 
#15
That's a pretty shallow analysis. Uncle Bulgaria kept an sinister (one of them was called Tobermory, so clearly Scotch) underground movement in the public eye and on prime time TV for several years. He may have looked like a harmless old gent pushing a rubbish agenda but ask yourself this: "What day do you put out your recycling bin and what will your local council do to you if you don't?".
I've always found the wombles to be dangerous faction. Collectivist militant litter obsessives based out of their North Londistan Tora Bora, obviously prefiguring the first attack on the twin towers by Ramzi Youseff and 9-11 itself. Look at the bomb belt on this bugger.

Just the sort of malcontent to set its hairy arse on fire in an airport with the goal of paralyzing the country.
 
#16
As most seem to agree here, Bin Liner was just a figurehead for an evil organisation. I doubt very much if he actually ever killed anyone. These people (if I could call them such) are quite happy to recommend everyone else to go to meet their maker but are far slower when it comes to volunteering themselves up for the four and twenty virgins or whatever. (Was that not Tobermory, someplace up the A9 anyway?)

AQ will continue as long as the West is seen as an imperial giant. I wonder how they'd get on setting off an IED in the middle of Beijing instead of downtown Peshawar? I think the big friendly yellow giant would kick some arse that day!
 
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pp0470

Guest
#18
BBC News - US vows to 'capture and kill' Ayman al-Zawahiri

Analysts say Egyptian-born Zawahiri is intelligent but lacks the charisma of his predecessor.

He is claimed by some experts to have been the "operational brains" behind the 9/11 attacks on the US.
Bin Laden - a charismatic figure head!

The US will hunt down and kill new al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri as it did Osama Bin Laden, Washington's top military officer has vowed.
So he has a good 10 years left then... ?

But I suppose the sooner we kill him, the sooner someone else will step into his shoes. I think the septics would call it ground hog day.
 
#19
On Jamestown Understanding Strategic Change in al-Qaeda’s Central Leadership after Bin Laden By: Murad Batal al-Shishani
...
Unlike Bin Laden, al-Zawahiri is focused more on the near enemy, this being due to his background as leader of a national jihad group before it adopted Salafism and joined the larger international jihad movement in the 1980s, of which al-Qaeda is the prime example. Al-Zawahiri’s focus on “the near enemy” comprised 50% of his speeches; in contrast “the far-enemy” was the focus of only 15% of his speeches, the rest being comprised mainly of general advice and instructions. The works of Abu Yahya al-Libi, Abu Abdulrahman Attiya al-Libi and Abdul Majid Abdul Majid reflect a similar lack of focus on fighting the far enemy. This suggests that core al-Qaeda will focus on targeting near enemies in the future. In his June 8 eulogy for Bin Laden, al-Zawahiri made explicit calls for jihad against the near enemy in Pakistan, Syria, Yemen and Libya.
...
The succession crisis in Cairo must be deeply frustrating for the old bugger. Gamal Mubarak would have been a near perfect near enemy. Now he faces the hugely popular Gen Tantawi, a well positioned Muslim Brotherhood, the Twitterati and the prospect of modest reforms and Cairo looking to its own national interests rather than Israel's. He'll be banking on that all going horribly wrong.
 

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