Big Brother to watch who buys alcohol

#1
The latest bit of legislation to make us safer in our beds is to allow Local Councils to insist that all retailers of alcohol fit CCTV. Police will be allowed to demand films which retailer must keep for 60 days. Code of Conduct can apply to supermarkets, corner shops, off-licenses and pubs. It is part of the Police and Crime Bill due to be pushed through next week.

It is reported in the Mail, but that doesn't mean it is untrue.

More invasion of privacy all in the name of public safety and security. Where will this end?
 

Command_doh

LE
Book Reviewer
#3
To catch chavs underage drinking, and threaten (but not actually do) retailers with being shut down.

Ho Hum.

They should all have CCTV to aid the prevention/investigation of crime anyway. Not really 'news' is it?
 
#4
Command_doh said:
To catch chavs underage drinking, and threaten (but not actually do) retailers with being shut down.

Ho Hum.

They should all have CCTV to aid the prevention/investigation of crime anyway. Not really 'news' is it?

an actual sensible move for a change!
 
#5
Take it you don't have to put up with drunken teenage ********* anywhere near you live?
Working in retail I know a lot of small off licenses serve teenagers through intimdation from the teenagers.
If cameras are to be introduced, some covering the outside of the store to help keep them away and to prevent them mithering adult customers approaching store to buy alcohol would be useful.
 
#6
i think that the UK should destroy whatever is in the perfect centre of our country and create a giant colliseum where all of the worlds criminals, chavs, emo's and general knobs are thrown into the deathpit. That way the only tax that we have to pay is to maintain the said colliseum and transport to and from.

this will also aid in destroying the lazy tax wasters. Also to appease the PC brigade (if we dont just throw them in there) we give each person a consensus: a) sign this form to fight in the pit and if you win 10 times you are free to go or b) spend the rest of your life in solitary confinement in prison. country sorted and this will also be a large tourist attraction thus resolving the financial crisis.

Vote Zed for PM!!
 
#8
Herrumph said:
More invasion of privacy all in the name of public safety and security. Where will this end?
How do you work that out? Are you going to be ID'd by Gupta whilst buying your eight ace? Is he going to record your passport details and address every time you ask for alcohol? No. So there's no invasion of YOUR privacy at all.
It'll just discourage the underage drinkers from going in, and will discourage Mr Gupta from selling to said kids without proper proof of age.

If you live in an area like mine, it's a welcome measure. Anything to stop my local 14 year olds thinking it's okay to roam the streets having a go at adults.
 
#9
Now....

...in an ideal world, this scheme will be used to deter the Chantelles and Dwaynes who buy booze under age, and create all sorts of mayhem.

...in reality, in our People's Paradise, it will be used to track middle age wine drinkers, employing facial recognition systems. If you buy more than two bottles in a week, the face of Tessa Jowell/Harriet Harman/Jacqui Smith (or another Liabour harpy) will appear, shrieking "DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE BINGE DRINKING!!!!" The chavs and chavettes will continue to buy their alco-pops and cheap cider because of their "yuman rights".

:twisted:
 
#10
zubrzycki said:
i think that the UK should destroy whatever is in the perfect centre of our country and create a giant colliseum where all of the worlds criminals, chavs, emo's and general knobs are thrown into the deathpit. That way the only tax that we have to pay is to maintain the said colliseum and transport to and from.

this will also aid in destroying the lazy tax wasters. Also to appease the PC brigade (if we dont just throw them in there) we give each person a consensus: a) sign this form to fight in the pit and if you win 10 times you are free to go or b) spend the rest of your life in solitary confinement in prison. country sorted and this will also be a large tourist attraction thus resolving the financial crisis.

Vote Zed for PM!!
They could rent out private boxes, like in the theatre, each one equiped with different weapons.

Hmm..let's take the box with the .50 cal tonight, and when we order drinks later we'll ask for a box of grenades and see who can throw the furthest.
 
#11
On the surface, it sounds like a sensible solution, but the problem is it is just one more step towards totalitarism (a modern autocratic government in which the state involves itself in all facets of society, including the daily life of its citizens).
 
#13
Quite, and not many rural pubs do either... yet. Before long EVERY alcohol retailing outlet will require CCTV by law - including the Fox & Gusset in Middle-of-Nowhereshire, that has never had (and is unlikely ever to have) a chav problem.

It also will not be very long until each such outlet is required to demand ID... by law - regardless of you being a zimmerframe-bound centenarian. This is ALREADY happening elsewhere in the UK. It's also a superb way of introducing ID cards, as those without passports and driving licenses will have NO OTHER OPTION but to submit... or lay off the Ace.

People will become so hacked off with demands for valid ID that they will welcome Big Brother in to their hearts instead of firing off missives to the Telegraph and Mail.

Accepting Big Brother is not enough. You must LOVE HIM!

Paranoid of Derwentwater
 
#14
Why do we need to be observed everywhere we go? Our streets already have more CCTVs per capita than most, if not all, civilised countries in the world. Do we all feel safer as a result? For every lowlife caught and sentenced as a result of CCTV evidence there are far more who don't get identified for a variety of reasons.

Perhaps we might have safer streets if the police were out walking the beat. Maybe we should stop encouraging the public to turn a blind-eye to anti-social and criminal behaviour. Shouldn't prevention of crime be a higher priority than easier to measure results like speeding and the myriad of new crimes added to the statute book over last decade.

Of course the law isn't intended to make every outlet to have CCTV, but will the petty enforcers in local councils be able to resist forcing it on everyone? It will be compulsory at entrances, at the bars, in the dark corners, in the beer garden, in the car-park. How long before it is being used to catch possible drunk drivers, disruption to neighbouring gardens, enforcement of licensing hours, kids playing fruit machines, betting on the dominoes, checking you didn't actually lightup tabs before you got into the authorised smoking area. Landlords will start checking your age, asking if you are driving and watching all their customers more closely because the camera will be on.

Finally who will pay for it all - the council? No you the customer, that's if even more landlords don't just pack it in alltogether
 
G

gdm.bizkit

Guest
#15
zubrzycki said:
i think that the UK should destroy whatever is in the perfect centre of our country and create a giant colliseum where all of the worlds criminals, chavs, emo's and general knobs are thrown into the deathpit. That way the only tax that we have to pay is to maintain the said colliseum and transport to and from.

this will also aid in destroying the lazy tax wasters. Also to appease the PC brigade (if we dont just throw them in there) we give each person a consensus: a) sign this form to fight in the pit and if you win 10 times you are free to go or b) spend the rest of your life in solitary confinement in prison. country sorted and this will also be a large tourist attraction thus resolving the financial crisis.

Vote Zed for PM!!

Basically like Jason Stathams film Deathrace. I agreee fully. I'd love to see that...


Vote Zed for PM !!! :L :L
 
#16
Whilst I have every sympathy with people on the receiving end of this anti social behaviour, is CCTV really the answer to it.

Many surveys recently conducted have concluded that there is no associated crime rate drop on CCTV surveillance areas. In fact, it has been suggested that investment in decent lighting detracts the criminal more so than CCTV.

CCTV has been useful in tracking vehicles and for enforcement of minor traffic violations such as unauthorised bus lane use.

I believe that many retailers do not sell alcohol to minors as the penalties are harsh.

The problem seems to be that many people of low social responsible, who are the legally prescribed age, buy these drinks on behalf of minors.

We are slowly reaching a saturation point of surveillance, and it is easy to pass hasty ill thought out legislation as an electorate appeasement measure than it is to tackle the problem head on.

There can be no greater deterrent than the human resource, wisely passed legislation and a respect for authority. Once one of these factors is compromised, enforcement becomes difficult.

Draconian legislation is being introduced with every man, woman and child being a potential suspect awaiting elimination dependant on CCTV footage analysis and database investigation.

For those who say “if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear”, allow me to quote from Henry Porter:

"If you’ve done nothing wrong you’ve got nothing to fear". Not true. There is something to fear - because someone else’s liberty is also your liberty. When it’s removed from them, it’s taken from you even though you may not be able to conceive of the circumstances when you might need it.

The surveillance society is where the state will crowd in on the individual human experience and threaten the unguarded freedoms of privacy, solitude, seclusion and anonymity. We may continue to attest to the feeling of freedom but in reality we will suffer more and more restrictions.

Inexorably we are becoming subjects not citizens, units on a database that may be observed and classified by a Government which is taking control in areas where it has never dared in democratic times to trespass before.
I remind you of the massive data loss of compromising details so far, from the child benefits agency, through to HMRC, and this is only the beginning of the data collection.

Also it is worth noting that councils are being told by the police to blanket all establishments that sell alcohol with CCTV or revoke their licence. This is concerning. ( I shall remain off the topic of the constabulary which installed CCTV in its tea room to ensure all officers washed up after themselves).

The function of the police is not to introduce legislative policy, and a move into this area will be a move closer to a police state.
 
#17
theiftaker said:
Take it you don't have to put up with drunken teenage ********* anywhere near you live?
Working in retail I know a lot of small off licenses serve teenagers through intimdation from the teenagers.
If cameras are to be introduced, some covering the outside of the store to help keep them away and to prevent them mithering adult customers approaching store to buy alcohol would be useful.
We have in the past.
Our local NPT have attacked the problem in the last few months with operations to stop underage drinkers and take away their alcohol which gets poured down the drain in front of them. And they make them put the cans and bottles in the bin afterwards. :D
They have also done a great job to put a stop to the gangs of them hanging around local shops causing bother in the evenings. There are a few other groups of youths that don't get any bother from the NPT because they keep their heads down and don't cause trouble. The word is getting around that the NPT will not take kindly to troublemakers. Along with ASBO's and visits to parents who are getting the hard word too, our area is becoming a lot better.
The Inspector and the Sergeant who are coordinating this team don't think cameras are the answer and they're proving that this is the case, they are certainly being proactive.
There's no substitute for a Police officer and a supporting team who have the will and the backing (especially the funding) to keep the peace. According to the NPT the majority of the trouble was caused by 6 young lads who didn't even live locally.
They have even instigated a local no entry zone banning certain individuals (already under a strong warning) from coming into the village on pain of being arrested on sight.
It's exciting times around here just lately and it already feels safer to nip to the offy late on for a couple of cans (or whatever).
I'm in contact with the NPT by email and feed information to them when I hear about it. The Police are very much information driven and I'm willing to help where I can, so why the hell not. This is my village.

"Don't worry Tubs, they'll not get far!" :twisted:
 
#18
CCTV isn't much use, it's reactive and often not good enough to use as evidence. I was shown a CCTV control room back in the early 90s (a random tour of a council department) and the operators were using it to zoom in on attractive women. Not much reassurance knowing that big Shane may get community service or a suspended sentence if you're lying in a pool of blood after a kicking...

For vehicles it's ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) linked to a database - this is a good system and an example of how technology can work.

My local cops were using youngsters to buy drink from outlets including a major chain petrol station....when the cops tried to have the license removed from the petrol station, the chain tried to sue the police force!

The cops elsewhere in Scotland have tried some schemes including raising the purchasing age to 21 (voluntary agreement of retailers) which apparently worked.
 
#19
I look back to my days of feral youth and must admit to underage drinking.

The difference was we had a respect for authority and discretion was always advised. Any drinks were consumed away from public view (normally in a secluded wood etc) to save embarrassment from adult chastisement.

This is not a new phenomenon; merely something has fundamentally changed allowing it to become a problem.

A whole myriad of reasons may explain why it is now a major problem. This could be from lack of visible police presence, lack of adult intervention, or lack of respect for authority caused by a soft approach to youth criminal justice. It may be a combination of all three.

I am certainly in agreement BarkingSpider that CCTV is not the answer, and applaud the approach of NPTs to increase visible presence. I`m also glad that sensible intelligence led policing is displayed, in that the sensible youths who are being discreet are being left alone.
 
#20
mad_mac said:
I look back to my days of feral youth and must admit to underage drinking.

The difference was we had a respect for authority and discretion was always advised. Any drinks were consumed away from public view (normally in a secluded wood etc) to save embarrassment from adult chastisement.

This is not a new phenomenon; merely something has fundamentally changed allowing it to become a problem.

A whole myriad of reasons may explain why it is now a major problem. This could be from lack of visible police presence, lack of adult intervention, or lack of respect for authority caused by a soft approach to youth criminal justice. It may be a combination of all three.

I am certainly in agreement BarkingSpider that CCTV is not the answer, and applaud the approach of NPTs to increase visible presence. I`m also glad that sensible intelligence led policing is displayed, in that the sensible youths who are being discreet are being left alone.
Indeed, your last comment for me says it all about the character of the Inspector and the Sergeant who run the NPT here. They know who the troublemakers are and only target them. This can only be good for everyone. Hounding youths who are doing nothing wrong except for being youths (we've all been there) serves no useful purpose and just alienates them. The visible Police presence is working even if it is just PCSO's, who are all quite dedicated here. I know they don't have many powers but they seem to be paired with experienced PC's as much as possible and the experience and good judgement is wearing off on the PCSO's. They have my (and many others around here) full support.

Incidentally I've just heard that the Sergeant has recently passed his Inspectors examination and I'm not surprised. I just hope we don't lose him any day soon.
 

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