Better utilization of assets over Syria

Special Forces Fighting in Iraq - With The Aid of Vintage Vietnam War Plane!

I was reading here of OV10 Broncos being used in Iraq and Syria because they were faster to get airborne, cheaper to operate, and had longer endurance over target than F series jets as well as being able to do a host of other things.

I doubt there is a comparable British system that might be better suited than the fast jets we supply now - but would, for instance, Hawks be better in a ground attack role?

@Toxicseagull @Magic_Mushroom @Lindermyer
 

Himmler74

On ROPS
On ROPs
Special Forces Fighting in Iraq - With The Aid of Vintage Vietnam War Plane!

I was reading here of OV10 Broncos being used in Iraq and Syria because they were faster to get airborne, cheaper to operate, and had longer endurance over target than F series jets as well as being able to do a host of other things.

I doubt there is a comparable British system that might be better suited than the fast jets we supply now - but would, for instance, Hawks be better in a ground attack role?

@Toxicseagull @Magic_Mushroom @Lindermyer

No, Syria has a some what decent GBADS, we have assets in theater that you don't need to know about or are. It cleared to know about.
 
Yup, I'd love to fly & operate an ac with no DAS in/around one of the most complex GBAD environments on the planet.
 

Himmler74

On ROPS
On ROPs
Yup, I'd love to fly & operate an ac with no DAS in/around one of the most complex GBAD environments on the planet.

He doesn't get it, if I were a small chap with a big watch I'd strap on a typhoon, pickle off 100k bombs and wish I was flying a F35b.
 
I linked to an article that states that they find the OV10s more effective and state other advantages.
Why shoot the messenger?
 

Himmler74

On ROPS
On ROPs
I linked to an article that states that they find the OV10s more effective and state other advantages.
Why shoot the messenger?

In low contested airspace, we have other assets that can do that.

Freebie for you read up on sentinel.
 
Special Forces Fighting in Iraq - With The Aid of Vintage Vietnam War Plane!

I was reading here of OV10 Broncos being used in Iraq and Syria because they were faster to get airborne, cheaper to operate, and had longer endurance over target than F series jets as well as being able to do a host of other things.

I doubt there is a comparable British system that might be better suited than the fast jets we supply now - but would, for instance, Hawks be better in a ground attack role?

@Toxicseagull @Magic_Mushroom @Lindermyer


Its a yay and Nay - (For the UK its a nay - for the US with far more high end assets it probably has utility - For a 3rd world air force fighting an insurgency its probably far more suitable than a high end Jet
For COIN - say Afghanistan - where GBAD was limited -then a long Endurance aircraft like the OV10 has merit

Its cheaper to buy and operate than Typhoon etc , however a Squadron may not cost much less because of course all the Pilots Plumbers Fairys Sootys, planning and other support staff are going to cost just as much (you may need less so that could offset some) .

So yes you could use a Sqn of those for COIN and save a few million - the trouble is your swapping a Typhoon / Tonka / F35 Sqn to do it.
Whilst the Broncos banging at coin - its generously described as sub optimal at intercepting a Mig 29.


Its a similar scenario as buying Less T45 and T26 and buying 6 bay class because they make more sense for chasing Pirates.

Hawk isn't suitable - cheaper than Typhoon but thanks to small payload, limited range and it really suffers hot n high you would need far more of them (and that's your savings gone)
 

Himmler74

On ROPS
On ROPs
Its a yay and Nay - (For the UK its a nay - for the US with far more high end assets it probably has utility - For a 3rd world air force fighting an insurgency its probably far more suitable than a high end Jet
For COIN - say Afghanistan - where GBAD was limited -then a long Endurance aircraft like the OV10 has merit

Its cheaper to buy and operate than Typhoon etc , however a Squadron may not cost much less because of course all the Pilots Plumbers Fairys Sootys, planning and other support staff are going to cost just as much (you may need less so that could offset some) .

So yes you could use a Sqn of those for COIN and save a few million - the trouble is your swapping a Typhoon / Tonka / F35 Sqn to do it.
Whilst the Broncos banging at coin - its generously described as sub optimal at intercepting a Mig 29.


Its a similar scenario as buying Less T45 and T26 and buying 6 bay class because they make more sense for chasing Pirates.

Hawk isn't suitable - cheaper than Typhoon but thanks to small payload, limited range and it really suffers hot n high you would need far more of them (and that's your savings gone)

All you can do with reaper, SF on ground etc.
You have to remember that the USA have many fingers in the pot, they have a niche ability to preserve a capability purely on where it is based-built.

I love working with them, on the ground they, the Danes, norgies and Estonians have your back.
 
All you can do with reaper, SF on ground etc.
You have to remember that the USA have many fingers in the pot, they have a niche ability to preserve a capability purely on where it is based-built.

I love working with them, on the ground they, the Danes, norgies and Estonians have your back.

Was pretty much the point I was trying to make.
 
...I was reading here of OV10 Broncos being used in Iraq and Syria because they were faster to get airborne, cheaper to operate, and had longer endurance over target than F series jets as well as being able to do a host of other things...

I've always liked the OV-10. However, it's currently being used by a specific operator in very niche roles in uncontested areas.

They may be cheaper to operate and/or quicker to launch under certain circumstances, but not all. Equally, their slow transit speed limits their utility in a great many scenarios.

Remember that Typhoons, F-15Es, F-16s, FA-18s and F-22s are not just conducting CAS. Simultaneously they're acting as swing role OCA/DCA to deter and identify Russian and Syrian fast jets, they're contributing to the air picture via their radar and data links, and acting as EW and ISR assets in their own right.

Those are all tasks which an OV-10 is largely unable to contribute to. Moreover, let's suppose that Mssrs Putin and/or Assad suddenly decide over a few beers to light up their SA-2/5/6/8/10/15/20s for a laugh. Immediately, the airspace of the region is closed to assets such as the OV-10 and A-10, just as it was 26 years ago during GW1 (where the OV-10's vulnerability to significantly less sophisticated threats was starkly demonstrated).

There will always be a constant drip of lobbyists/spotters/Gen Richards that CAS can be conducted more cheaply and effectively by A-10s/AT-6/Super Tucano/OV-10/AT-802 etc. Unfortunately, operational reality is rather more complex.

...I doubt there is a comparable British system that might be better suited than the fast jets we supply now - but would, for instance, Hawks be better in a ground attack role?

No.

Let's look at single seat Hawk 200s. The type's 2 x wing tip stations are realistically limited to ASRAAM class missiles or lightweight C2 pods leaving you with 5 external hardpoints. Due to the Hawk's limited endurance, realistically 2 of those will be needed for fuel tanks. The centre-line station will be required for a targeting pod and at least one EW pod will also be required as the Hawk's size precludes internal defensive aids. That leaves a single outboard hardpoint which is only suitable for relatively light weapons such as a couple of DMSB or a single AGM-65.

Meanwhile, time on task would be reduced due to the need for more regular AAR.

CAS - particularly in a contested evironment - can be conducted cheaply or effectively. However, you can't have both.

Regards,
MM
 
I've always liked the OV-10. However, it's currently being used by a specific operator in very niche roles in uncontested areas.

They may be cheaper to operate and/or quicker to launch under certain circumstances, but not all. Equally, their slow transit speed limits their utility in a great many scenarios.

Remember that Typhoons, F-15Es, F-16s, FA-18s and F-22s are not just conducting CAS. Simultaneously they're acting as swing role OCA/DCA to deter and identify Russian and Syrian fast jets, they're contributing to the air picture via their radar and data links, and acting as EW and ISR assets in their own right.

Those are all tasks which an OV-10 is largely unable to contribute to. Moreover, let's suppose that Mssrs Putin and/or Assad suddenly decide over a few beers to light up their SA-2/5/6/8/10/15/20s for a laugh. Immediately, the airspace of the region is closed to assets such as the OV-10 and A-10, just as it was 26 years ago during GW1 (where the OV-10's vulnerability to significantly less sophisticated threats was starkly demonstrated).

There will always be a constant drip of lobbyists/spotters/Gen Richards that CAS can be conducted more cheaply and effectively by A-10s/AT-6/Super Tucano/OV-10/AT-802 etc. Unfortunately, operational reality is rather more complex.



No.

Let's look at single seat Hawk 200s. The type's 2 x wing tip stations are realistically limited to ASRAAM class missiles or lightweight C2 pods leaving you with 5 external hardpoints. Due to the Hawk's limited endurance, realistically 2 of those will be needed for fuel tanks. The centre-line station will be required for a targeting pod and at least one EW pod will also be required as the Hawk's size precludes internal defensive aids. That leaves a single outboard hardpoint which is only suitable for relatively light weapons such as a couple of DMSB or a single AGM-65.

Meanwhile, time on task would be reduced due to the need for more regular AAR.

CAS - particularly in a contested evironment - can be conducted cheaply or effectively. However, you can't have both.

Regards,
MM
@Magic_Mushroom thank you for your reply. I was posting a genuine question and appreciate your erudite reply. Should you be able to educate your Rock Apes @Himmler74 life would easier for all three services.
 
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