Benefits of High Speed Rail project exaggerated, secret report reveals

as the NVA colonel said "That may be true, but it is also irrelevant" :cool:

i think the UK could benefit from large scale infrastructure links outwith London and if it's framed in purely economic terms it will die a death. if campaigners are savvy they'll start banging the carbon neutral drum in order to get the political support these projects will need.

there's very few people outwith the regions who will care about regional transport links (voters or politicians) but you'll find plenty of supporters across the country, and across different political parties, if you tell them you want to reduce the number of internal flights and single passenger car journeys we complete as a nation
Preaching to the converted.

The Northern Powerhouse could have been achieved by Mr Punch Drunk Prescott himself - they had the votes.
Osbourne could have done it too.

As I have posted earlier what could help to radically reduce costs in construction/re-building of UK rail is looking at the issue of OHLE clearances and reverting to the original BR clearances - it's not the fault of the EU, it is certainly the fault of the slack arrsed British CS who let it go through without any derogations, which we could have obtained on at least two counts.

Lowering bridge and tunnel clearances would save substantial sums of money - as an example, before the issue was discovered, GWML was in for around .8Bn, after attention was drawn to the issue of OHLE clearances, the price rose to 3.2Bn; @ugly could perhaps shed light on the true cost savings then again he is signals - another area of contretemps at the moment.

That the North need connectivity is undeniable and should be addressed as anyone who has ever driven the A66 would attest to.
 
Last edited:
Preaching to the converted.

The Northern Powerhouse could have been achieved by Mr Punch Drunk Prescott himself - they had the votes.
Osbourne could have done it too.

As I have posted earlier what could help to radically reduce costs in construction/re-building of UK rail is looking at the issue of OHLE clearances and reverting to the original BR clearances - it's not the fault of the EU, it is certainly the fault of the slack arrsed British CS who let it go through without any derogations, which we could have obtained on at least two counts.

Lowering bridge and tunnel clearances would save substantial sums of money - as an example, before the issue was discovered, GWML was in for around .8Bn, after attention was drawn to the issue of OHLE clearances, the price rose to 3.2Bn; @ugly could perhaps shed light on the true cost savings then again he is signals - another area of contretemps at the moment.

That the North need conectitivity is undeniable and should be addressed as anyone who has ever driven the A66 would attest to.

Very good point although if the HS2 business case was properly reviewed with all options considered, including the completion of four tracking of WCML and ECML. Also an upgrade of existing mainline to Derby.

I suspect the drivers for HS2 would evaporate, however like other vanity programmes (smart meters) it will continue to bankrupt the country.

YM
 
Very good point although if the HS2 business case was properly reviewed with all options considered, including the completion of four tracking of WCML and ECML. Also an upgrade of existing mainline to Derby.

I suspect the drivers for HS2 would evaporate, however like other vanity programmes (smart meters) it will continue to bankrupt the country.

YM
Like the ECML, some parts just can not be four tracked - although, to expand your point, double tracking and electrifying Chiltern would cause some consternation in the business case BUT, at the present time, electrification is a big no no because of OHLE clearances based on the EU Directive - which we could have challenged but forgot to do so; change the regs and quite possibly, HS2 might be in trouble.

Should you look at Modern Railways Jan 2020, nice piece of why even with HS2, the extra capacity is not going to be so easy to achieve, unfortunately.
 

Dark_Nit

LE
Book Reviewer
A lot of the capacity thing is just so much B/S

When I were a lad (late 70s / early 80s) and travelled quite a lot by train:

The Liverpool-Newcastle train (one of my regular trips) was a locomotive and 8 or sometimes 9 coaches. The current "Transpennine Express" trains are 5 or 6 coach DMUs 9, so 2 cab spaces less. Same with the Liverpool - Nottingham, always used to be 6 coaches, the one I caught a couple of weeks ago was 3 coaches.

The Liverpool - London and Manchester - London expresses were always a minimum of 11 coaches and often 12. These days, an 11 coach Pendolino, which is actually equal to 10 coaches, and if you're going on the stopping train or Liverpool - Birmingham then a 6 coach EMU, also used to be a 9 coach class 310 EMU. There are lots of other examples of this. The Llandudno -Manchester Airport train - often 2 coaches, 3 if you are lucky, used to be 5 coaches.
 
Last edited:
Because I am a seasoned cynic, I predict that the final bill for HS2 will be north of £200bn. Why? Because it can be, therefore it will be. The lawyers are creaming their pants in anticipation.
 

UKTAP

LE
Said it before and I'll say it again - HS2 is a vanity project which delivers negligible end product for an eye watering price.

Considering we are talking about a project that will deliver over a two decade time frame, we are very likely to see publicly owned self-driving cars emerge as a primary mode of transport in that time frame, largely rendering passenger rail obsolete.

Add to that the fact that we will be paying £200bn(!!!) to cut a few minutes of a couple of routes that only a select few will use, and it becomes clear that HS2 would likely become the worst value for money mega-project the world has ever seen.

Stop HS2? If I were in charge, I'd be banning for public office anyone who doesn't oppose it. I'd also be doing a deep dive into potential corruption. It's hard to understand why MPs would be for such a manifestly terrible undertaking, without being on the receiving end of some sort of kickback. Get the cnuts in the dock...
 
A lot of the capacity thing is just so much B/S

When I were a lad (late 70s / early 80s) and travelled quite a lot by train:

The Liverpool-Newcastle train (one of my regular trips) was a locomotive and 8 or sometimes 9 coaches. The current "Transpennine Express" trains are 5 or 6 coach DMUs 9, so 2 cab spaces less. Same with the Liverpool - Nottingham, always used to be 6 coaches, the one I caught a couple of weeks ago was 3 coaches.

The Liverpool - London and Manchester - London expresses were always a minimum of 11 coaches and often 12. These days, an 11 coach Pendolino, which is actually equal to 10 coaches, and if you're going on the stopping train or Liverpool - Birmingham then a 6 coach EMU, also used to be a 9 coach class 310 EMU. There are lots of other examples of this. The Llandudno -Manchester Airport train - often 2 coaches, 3 if you are lucky, used to be 5 coaches.
You remember that????
 
A lot of the capacity thing is just so much B/S

When I were a lad (late 70s / early 80s) and travelled quite a lot by train:

The Liverpool-Newcastle train (one of my regular trips) was a locomotive and 8 or sometimes 9 coaches. The current "Transpennine Express" trains are 5 or 6 coach DMUs 9, so 2 cab spaces less. Same with the Liverpool - Nottingham, always used to be 6 coaches, the one I caught a couple of weeks ago was 3 coaches.

The Liverpool - London and Manchester - London expresses were always a minimum of 11 coaches and often 12. These days, an 11 coach Pendolino, which is actually equal to 10 coaches, and if you're going on the stopping train or Liverpool - Birmingham then a 6 coach EMU, also used to be a 9 coach class 310 EMU. There are lots of other examples of this. The Llandudno -Manchester Airport train - often 2 coaches, 3 if you are lucky, used to be 5 coaches.
Please add in:
Journey times
Frequency
Change in travel modes
Connectivity - internet, at seat sockets
Productivity

When (IF) you can do all that, please send me your PhD thesis paper, should be interesting.

(Ps, please don't snipe.)
 
Said it before and I'll say it again - HS2 is a vanity project which delivers negligible end product for an eye watering price.

Considering we are talking about a project that will deliver over a two decade time frame, we are very likely to see publicly owned self-driving cars emerge as a primary mode of transport in that time frame, largely rendering passenger rail obsolete.

Add to that the fact that we will be paying £200bn(!!!) to cut a few minutes of a couple of routes that only a select few will use, and it becomes clear that HS2 would likely become the worst value for money mega-project the world has ever seen.

Stop HS2? If I were in charge, I'd be banning for public office anyone who doesn't oppose it. I'd also be doing a deep dive into potential corruption. It's hard to understand why MPs would be for such a manifestly terrible undertaking, without being on the receiving end of some sort of kickback. Get the cnuts in the dock...
 
Because I am a seasoned cynic, I predict that the final bill for HS2 will be north of £200bn. Why? Because it can be, therefore it will be. The lawyers are creaming their pants in anticipation.

Acela in the U.S went well over budget (was supposed to be HSR - but ended up averaging around 90mph - mainly because they share same lines as slower freight trains) , and the Cali HSR is expected to be twice the proposed budget (if completed), so wouldn't be surprised.
 
Acela in the U.S went well over budget (was supposed to be HSR - but ended up averaging around 90mph - mainly because they share same lines as slower freight trains) , and the Cali HSR is expected to be twice the proposed budget (if completed), so wouldn't be surprised.
Chestnuts, old.

Who in America would be really opposed to HSR actually delivering?
Erm, erm, erm, let me guess...

Automotive, Airline, Oil and Construction?

Do I get a prize?

(Economist, within the last 24 months).
 
Chestnuts, old.

Who in America would be really opposed to HSR actually delivering?
Erm, erm, erm, let me guess...

Automotive, Airline, Oil and Construction?

Do I get a prize?

(Economist, within the last 24 months).

You are right.

Acela in the North East corridor is the only really profitable line for Amtrak. They want to replicate that in the SE- corridor.
 
Because I am a seasoned cynic, I predict that the final bill for HS2 will be north of £200bn. Why? Because it can be, therefore it will be. The lawyers are creaming their pants in anticipation.

Just so. Essentially, the whole project has now been afforded government bonded 'too big to fail' status. It is now an open cheque book to all.
 
Just in case the HS2 project was in any danger of becoming popular...


5G and now HS2. Here's an idea. Just hand the Chinese the keys to the whole shooting match. It will save all this pointless hanging around.
If they use it as a stick to beat the current consortium over the head with they may get a better deal. Doubt that the Chinese could build at the same speed in UK, NIMBY central can't be sorted as easily as protestors in China.
 

4(T)

LE
Just in case the HS2 project was in any danger of becoming popular...


5G and now HS2. Here's an idea. Just hand the Chinese the keys to the whole shooting match. It will save all this pointless hanging around.


So this is what was behind BoJo's boast that he could knock 20%(?) off the HS2 price - he is literally going to get the Chinese to build it.

I think the whole Chinese thing is going to blow up badly in BJ's face at the next election. It'd be far better to go without HS2, 5G and a new nuke plant until such time as our own or friendly nation people can come up to speed and do the work; handing our likely next major enemy these huge political, economic and technological boosts is pure madness - no wonder the US are so incensed, they'll be the ones who have to do the fighting.
 

Latest Threads

Top