Benefits of High Speed Rail project exaggerated, secret report reveals

no major problems then;)Travel with Australias queensland rail,a very relaxing experience, brisbane to Mount Isa ,about a 36 hour journey split into 2 halves, brissie to townsville(currently under water) townsville to The Isa a great trip good bar and food,even cabin service for first class , and west of cloncurry if you want to you can get off and walk beside the slowly moving train, if you are in a hurry FLY:headbang:
 
Sounds like South Eastern. Every single one of the people I know who use that specific "service" hate it. No wonder they never used to be in the office half the time.
I think you mean Southern. Southeastern is pretty damn good in my experience (daily use for the last 8 years); mostly I ride the HS1 Javelins up to that there London, but when I use them the normal trains are usually pretty much on time, not many cancellations that I'm aware of, and no massive issues with staff / unions. Unlike Southern, who are shite.
 
I think you mean Southern. Southeastern is pretty damn good in my experience (daily use for the last 8 years); mostly I ride the HS1 Javelins up to that there London, but when I use them the normal trains are usually pretty much on time, not many cancellations that I'm aware of, and no massive issues with staff / unions. Unlike Southern, who are shite.
Both are owned by the same company. Southern operates in the most congested rail network in the UK and when a problem arises at, for example, Gatwick, or in the Arun Valley, services can't do **** all and it all goes very quickly to rat shit.
 
Both are owned by the same company. Southern operates in the most congested rail network in the UK and when a problem arises at, for example, Gatwick, or in the Arun Valley, services can't do **** all and it all goes very quickly to rat shit.
The overall ownership is not the issue IMHO, as the companies are managed as separate entities. The actual architecture of the network is far more relevant, as is the state of industrial relations. As I said, Southeastern runs a generally very good service on all of its routes, whereas Southern does not (from the experience of friends and colleagues who use it daily).
 
The overall ownership is not the issue IMHO, as the companies are managed as separate entities. The actual architecture of the network is far more relevant, as is the state of industrial relations. As I said, Southeastern runs a generally very good service on all of its routes, whereas Southern does not (from the experience of friends and colleagues who use it daily).
Infrastructure has nothing to do with the ToC's and FoC's, except for access charge payments. Until you can get a train (of any type/length) to be able to hurdle one stuck in front, then I have no idea what they can do. There is no possibility to run more trains, as it is already full to capacity. Also, a lot of delays, are not down to the ToC that you are using and can result from another region entirely.
 
Infrastructure has nothing to do with the ToC's and FoC's, except for access charge payments. Until you can get a train (of any type/length) to be able to hurdle one stuck in front, then I have no idea what they can do. There is no possibility to run more trains, as it is already full to capacity. Also, a lot of delays, are not down to the ToC that you are using and can result from another region entirely.
Agreed, which is why building HS2 rather than bringing the current mess up to an acceptable standard is so bloody silly. getting from Lunnun to Mank 20 minutes quicker is meaningless when you miss your HS2 train due to a track/signalling/train failure coming from your home in Bolton/Croydon.
We're supposed to be eschewing the use of motor cars for environmental reasons & the car is at its least efficient on short/urban journeys, so fix the local stuff first for the greatest benefit.
 
I think you mean Southern. Southeastern is pretty damn good in my experience (daily use for the last 8 years); mostly I ride the HS1 Javelins up to that there London, but when I use them the normal trains are usually pretty much on time, not many cancellations that I'm aware of, and no massive issues with staff / unions. Unlike Southern, who are shite.
Yep. That's the one. I got it mixed up.
 
Dispatches - Channel 4 now -The Great Train Robbery re: HS2

It'll be on again at 21:00 on Channel 4+1
While there was some emotive playing for the camera, the overall programme was pretty damning, and gave me a whole new set of reasons, with the state of the railways in the area, for not wanting to go anywhere near Manc.
 
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no major problems then;)Travel with Australias queensland rail,a very relaxing experience, brisbane to Mount Isa ,about a 36 hour journey split into 2 halves, brissie to townsville(currently under water) townsville to The Isa a great trip good bar and food,even cabin service for first class , and west of cloncurry if you want to you can get off and walk beside the slowly moving train, if you are in a hurry FLY:headbang:
To put that in perspective, considering the flight time is 2hrs 40, and the distance by rail is over 2200km, similar to going from Paris to Sofia, though with a lot less to see once you get west of the Dividing Range.
 
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The overall ownership is not the issue IMHO, as the companies are managed as separate entities. The actual architecture of the network is far more relevant, as is the state of industrial relations. As I said, Southeastern runs a generally very good service on all of its routes, whereas Southern does not (from the experience of friends and colleagues who use it daily).
A Southern Train is scheduled to run between Bletchley and Bedford at 18:31 every weekday evening. The next train between the two is not until 20:00(ish).

There's a WMR Brum to London service scheduled to land at Bletchley at 18:27, usually on the other side of the same platform, always carrying a substantial number of folk headed for Bedford.

I've seen Bedford passengers running the few metres from the slightly delayed WMR service towards the open doors of the 18:31, only to find the conductor (who could see the same thing because he was stood on the platform with only his arm inside his rearmost car) slamming the doors in their faces and hightailing it on the dot.

That kind of Jobsworth attitude speaks of a disinterested workforce, which in turn is the product of poor leadership IMHO, and as someone put it on another thread recently - the fish rots from the head.
 
Much as I consider the HS2 concept to be an impossibly expensive capital project in search of a business case, I am realistic enough to know that it is by no means probable that money saved by its cancellation will find its way to improving the existing railway infrastructure.

No, we must simply await the next vanity project.
 
Much as I consider the HS2 concept to be an impossibly expensive capital project in search of a business case, I am realistic enough to know that it is by no means probable that money saved by its cancellation will find its way to improving the existing railway infrastructure.

No, we must simply await the next vanity project.
Agreed.

It's not perfect - very, very far from it - and in a perfect world other things should be done instead, but the HS" funding is actually being spent on rail at the moment (and it WILL produce new infrastructure which will be in use and of use for decades (possibly centuries) to come), and any cancellation would virtually guarantee a reduction of funding. To believe otherwise would be folly.
 
A Southern Train is scheduled to run between Bletchley and Bedford at 18:31 every weekday evening. The next train between the two is not until 20:00(ish).

There's a WMR Brum to London service scheduled to land at Bletchley at 18:27, usually on the other side of the same platform, always carrying a substantial number of folk headed for Bedford.

I've seen Bedford passengers running the few metres from the slightly delayed WMR service towards the open doors of the 18:31, only to find the conductor (who could see the same thing because he was stood on the platform with only his arm inside his rearmost car) slamming the doors in their faces and hightailing it on the dot.

That kind of Jobsworth attitude speaks of a disinterested workforce, which in turn is the product of poor leadership IMHO, and as someone put it on another thread recently - the fish rots from the head.
It's that sort of dung that is the result of the ongoing Unions vs Govt Management powerplay struggle, which will only be resolved by outright defeat of one side, and root and branch reform.

Hopefully the unions will lose, as they're a bunch of cnuts in my experience. But the management egged on by the Govt isn't exactly awesome...
 
Agreed.

It's not perfect - very, very far from it - and in a perfect world other things should be done instead, but the HS" funding is actually being spent on rail at the moment (and it WILL produce new infrastructure which will be in use and of use for decades (possibly centuries) to come), and any cancellation would virtually guarantee a reduction of funding. To believe otherwise would be folly.
You misunderstand me. There is no viable business case for HS2. Less still as capital costs increase further. Less still again if the project is scaled down to London-Birmingham only (as is likely if the project is not abandoned in its entirety).

That the savings made by the cancellation of the HS2 project are not guaranteed for reallocation to other rail improvement projects is not a justification for continuing with HS2. It is still not a viable business case.
 
You misunderstand me. There is no viable business case for HS2. Less still as capital costs increase further. Less still again if the project is scaled down to London-Birmingham only (as is likely if the project is not abandoned in its entirety).

That the savings made by the cancellation of the HS2 project are not guaranteed for reallocation to other rail improvement projects is not a justification for continuing with HS2. It is still not a viable business case.
Fair enough. I see your point, and can't really fault your logic (as far as it goes). However if you consider the issue in the long term, I believe that there is justification for HS2 continuing.

The fact that the HS2 Business case is not viable I won't argue - I'm not a businessman or accountant, but I wouldn't exactly be shocked to find it to be true. The same has been true for many (most?) large scale engineering infrastructure projects; if business were the only driver, nothing big would EVER get built. whilst I'm not exactly sanguine about the huge amounts of investment being poured into HS2, nor am I blind to the fact that at least there will be a concrete product at the end: a new railway route, which will have at the very least decades of use, quite possibly centuries. If it's completed of course (a big "if" considering the knives being sharpened).

IMHO, any investment in large scale infrastructure projects like HS2 should be considered a good long term investment, unless there is overwhelming evidence that it will never be used (in the next century or two). Very, very, very long term, mind...

Money gets spaffed up the wall by HM Government in a myriad of wasteful ways, at least here there will be something useful to show for it.
 
Suggestions for alternative, well considered and beneficial routes were made and ignored by politicians. Same old.
Yep.

But we are here. What do we do now?
 
Yep.

But we are here. What do we do now?
Not a straight forward answer unfortunately. There is no perfect solution.

Stop it and the money invested so far is wasted. Using the planned route for low speed passenger use doesn't make sense, if as is claimed, it only saves 10% of the cost of high speed infrastructure. Do nothing and the existing overloading problems will get worse and be compounded by increased road traffic which impacts business.

Stop it and invest in existing infrastructure. That would be welcome but requires down time and coach journeys by road. Some freight lines could possibly be upgraded to mixed traffic for local services.

Stop it and fund NHS etc - bottomless pit.

Carry on with it and hope that it benefits people and business through improved capacity and resilience. Where is the electricity coming from?

I found this article from 2015, which interviewed Andrew McNaughton. He makes a good case for the way things were planned following the initial brief to connect major cities. It all sounds quite reasonable on the surface, in the context of capacity planning. Supposedly the high speed capacity would free up standard passenger lines to allow increased frequency. Sounds good. Meanwhile it will still take longer to travel many routes than it would take to fly thousands of miles away unless mainline routes get upgraded too and that's if you can get on the overcrowded train.

As the saying goes, if you want to go there, don't start from here. =)


1549986923746.png

HS2 – The story so far

There are a lot of resources on the web and some that seem to have gone (out of date perhaps) Here are some that might be of interest:

Route map | High Speed 2

Why HS2 | High Speed 2

Check the HS2 route

https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/69741/hs2-cost-and-risk-model-report.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.g...2/CS392G_B_Phase_2A_Route_corridor_v2_web.pdf

A strategic analysis of the sustainability case for High Speed 2
http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/78008

High Speed 2 (HS2) Railway - Railway Technology

HS2 digital - Arup

HS2 Facts
 
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To put that in perspective, considering the flight time is 2hrs 40, and the distance by rail is over 2200km, similar to going from Paris to Sofia, though with a lot less to see once you get west of the Dividing Range.
But one does have the advantage after Cloncurry of admiring the same farmhouse from all sides for a couple of hours as one meanders past:p
 

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