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Beirut Explosion, so what was it?

Which attacks are you referring to when you say "There were certainly IDF on the ground prior to the attacks"?

Not the first small land incursion on the 12th but the later airstrikes on Hez supplies. The rumours were that Mossad/Sayeret Matkal (I had to google the name) were operating on the ground before the attacks on the Hez munitions dump in S.Beirut. Whilst they have been just rumours, as I've mentioned, we saw the aftermath of an exfil by some sort of sneaky types via the IDF's 669 unit. The IDF SF also conducted
snatch operations in the North of Lebanon via helicopter of course.

Most of the spotting was done by drones (known as MK or Mother Camels due to translation error!) and certainly a strike would be proceeded by the buzzing of it's engine. However the Lebs reckoned that there were FO on the ground too.

In 2006 however, the IDF was shamefully unprepared for the attack by Hezbollah. The then Prime Minister, Olmert, was a peace orientated non-former military type. The IDF CoGS was an air force type who apparently thought everything could be done by air. As a result we paid a very high price in lives and health.

I made it down to the Litani River a few times and the duty rumours there were that the Hez prepared positions had taken their toll on a number of IDF AFV.

It was here that I experienced, for the first time, what an air attack is like: basically I was completely unaware until a Lebanese Army lorry disappeared in a flash and then about 30 seconds later I heard the a/c.
Note: it was a Lebanese (LAF) column that was being attacked and we just happened to be close to it. The driver survived because he was having a piss against a tree.

Your accounts of the scenes there are interesting btw.

Full disclaimer: I was working for Fox News at the time: hence Hez's slightly combative attitude to my activities. We had people on both sides of the border. We could see the rockets launch and then watch the sat feed via New York, to see our blokes in Haifa running about taking cover.

The interviews in Dixie (our code for Israel) were always with very 'American' IDF spokespeople and the viewers back home in the States lapped it up. Not helped by our journos referring on air to the IDF advance by saying 'We are rolling over the border...'

I've always wondered if some the strikes were from naval vessels?
 
There are more 'before and after' pictures out there, but here's one:

View attachment 494900

More here:

They are going to need one of these:
1596720878372.png


Shouldn't take too long, I expect we've got the plans laid aside somewhere
 

TamH70

MIA
From where I am sitting, the best that can be said is "opinions vary.."

The likely outcome of "an event" on the Richard Montgomery would be dependent on what percentage of the cargo was involved and the mitigation offered by the sand and tide at the time. We do not know what the actual condition of the munitions are, although we have a cargo manifest of what was there when it sank. The quandary that faces us is that conducting any sort of investigation is likely to create a greater risk than not conducting one as most of the stuff is buried in a sand/water/steel/random muck matrix that is not conducive to remote sensing.

It is probable that a percentage of the stores have corroded to the point where seawater ingress will have attacked the filling. It is equally probable that some of the stores, in particular thick cased bombs, have not. The site has been subject to sand scouring and it is probable that some of the items have been subject to movement, but some not..! Formulating a realistic render safe procedure is somewhat dependent on carrying out a survey of what is there, however nobody is prepared to even sanction this...!

Finally we are not in a robust politco-legal situation here! If the site goes Pete Tong, anyone involved either directly or indirectly is going to be sought out for trashing! There is therefore nobody prepared to either foot the bill or take the risk, so nothing happens, (until it happens..! ) and responsibility is left to whatever deity you fancy..

The situation should probably have been dealt with soon after the sinking, when at least the munitions were in a known configuration, the population was slightly more used to being vaporised than now and the courts were rather more willing to accept "acts of god" as incontestable..!

On the up side however, I would rate the chances of a single event as less than the situation in Beirut as most of the elements are probably not in intimate contact and are tamped by water and sand, however I would not put money on it...!

This is probably an extremely bone question but why don't they just evacuate the area around the vessel, remove and store any infrastructure and stuff that could be blown up by the ship going BOOM!!! like for example power lines, oil pipelines, communications cables and so on, and task either the RAF or the Navy to smite it with great vengeance and furious anger? At least that way the inevitable said BOOM!!! would come at a time and place of someones choosing rather than the ghost of the ship going all chopsy and deciding to do it itself.

And once it's gone BOOM!!! it isn't going to go BOOM!!! again, and all the infrastructure and stuff that had already been removed and stored could be replaced without having the threat of it going BOOM!!! all unplanned like what happened to the Port of Beirut?
 
He went on to say:
'I'm convinced and sure that this war was planned and that the capture of these hostages was just their excuse to start their pre-planned war, but if I had known on July 11 ... that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not...'

I had a few run-ins with Hezbollah whilst I was there:

Apart from when I was lifted and spoken harshly to; One of our 'Them' security blokes went rogue and managed to sneak up on a Fjar launch site and film it.
My journo unwisely sent it to base to be aired. Very soon (scarily soon) afterwards a Hez bloke walked up on the journo and made it clear he would be shot if the footage was aired again... despite a panicked call to New York it was broadcast again! (cue: much pant wetting and hair tearing on the part of the journo and 'sympathetic' noises from me) However our security blokes took a surprisingly sanguine approach and did a bit of shrugging - the bloke who got the footage trousered some dollars so he was OK. The journo still lives BTW.

However IIRC the HQ was established before there was any possibility of a IDF strike. The level of destruction surprised everyone.

There were certainly IDF on the ground prior to the attacks. In the North of Beirut we saw the remains of a fire fight as some 'people' SF/Mossad? were picked up by 669. There was a lot of brass on the deck.

Water drilling rigs that looked like rocket launchers were hit and burnt out by surprisingly small munitions too.

I also saw the results of the IDF 'knock on the door' after Hez launched a Zelzal rocket from next to a residential home. I'm pretty sure Hez knew what the outcome would be.

Recalling how the scripts to 'Drop The Dead Donkey' were incredibly topical at the time and also various satirical TV progs, it's a shame that your experiences couldn't have more exposure to give greater context to current affairs.
 
It was here that I experienced, for the first time, what an air attack is like: basically I was completely unaware until a Lebanese Army lorry disappeared in a flash and then about 30 seconds later I heard the a/c.
Note: it was a Lebanese (LAF) column that was being attacked and we just happened to be close to it. The driver survived because he was having a piss against a tree.

Sounds somewhat similar to my experience of being attacked by the IAF in June 1982, sitting in the shade of a low stone wall across the wadi, the morning's armour/ artillery/ infantry battle being over and then a sudden screech of diving jets and a huge explosion on our unit's APC column.
 
I definitely don’t think ‘sod em’, particularly the many dead and injured who were probably just going about their daily business in total ignorance of the deadly presence in their midst. By all means condemn the privileged, corrupt individuals in positions of power and influence, many there only because of who they know, but not the rest of the population.
I’ve been watching the BBC documentary Once Upon a Time in Iraq, which features many talking head type interviews with ordinary Iraqis, caught up in the horrors of war following the 2003 invasion and toppling of Saddam. To a man and woman, they come across as decent, articulate, intelligent and normal human beings, trying to make sense of the hand they have been dealt, because of their religion/tribe/caste.
Very similar to the current horror in Lebanon I reckon.
By all means condemn the leaders, but not the people.

For clarity my 'sod 'em' was aimed at the Lebanese government now wheel spinning in a mess of their own making.
 

MoleBath

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
From where I am sitting, the best that can be said is "opinions vary.."

The likely outcome of "an event" on the Richard Montgomery would be dependent on what percentage of the cargo was involved and the mitigation offered by the sand and tide at the time. We do not know what the actual condition of the munitions are, although we have a cargo manifest of what was there when it sank. The quandary that faces us is that conducting any sort of investigation is likely to create a greater risk than not conducting one as most of the stuff is buried in a sand/water/steel/random muck matrix that is not conducive to remote sensing.

It is probable that a percentage of the stores have corroded to the point where seawater ingress will have attacked the filling. It is equally probable that some of the stores, in particular thick cased bombs, have not. The site has been subject to sand scouring and it is probable that some of the items have been subject to movement, but some not..! Formulating a realistic render safe procedure is somewhat dependent on carrying out a survey of what is there, however nobody is prepared to even sanction this...!

Finally we are not in a robust politco-legal situation here! If the site goes Pete Tong, anyone involved either directly or indirectly is going to be sought out for trashing! There is therefore nobody prepared to either foot the bill or take the risk, so nothing happens, (until it happens..! ) and responsibility is left to whatever deity you fancy..

The situation should probably have been dealt with soon after the sinking, when at least the munitions were in a known configuration, the population was slightly more used to being vaporised than now and the courts were rather more willing to accept "acts of god" as incontestable..!

On the up side however, I would rate the chances of a single event as less than the situation in Beirut as most of the elements are probably not in intimate contact and are tamped by water and sand, however I would not put money on it...!
Good location for an illegal migrant dormitory ship ?
1596723783932.png
 
Sounds somewhat similar to my experience of being attacked by the IAF in June 1982, sitting in the shade of a low stone wall across the wadi, the morning's armour/ artillery/ infantry battle being over and then a sudden screech of diving jets and a huge explosion on our unit's APC column.

It's quite rare to be attacked by biggles nowadays. Most of the large conflicts I've covered have established air superiority by the good guys.
In the films someone shouts 'aircraft take cover etc..' in reality they fire from so far off that the first anyone is aware is the impact.
 
Recalling how the scripts to 'Drop The Dead Donkey' were incredibly topical at the time and also various satirical TV progs, it's a shame that your experiences couldn't have more exposure to give greater context to current affairs.
It wasn't that long ago there was a thread on here which degenerated into name-calling of journalists in conflict zones who were criticised for being open about the stresses they had been under. It was the typical 'leftie snowflake BBC reporters staying in 5* hotels have no idea what combat is like' sort of comments. Particular bile was directed at Jeremy Bowen, who has been under fire numerous times and escaped from a press vehicle shot up by the IDF and saw his best mate (Lebanese photographer IIRC) burn to death. Yeah, Snowflake cucks the lot of them.
 
It wasn't that long ago there was a thread on here which degenerated into name-calling of journalists in conflict zones who were criticised for being open about the stresses they had been under. It was the typical 'leftie snowflake BBC reporters staying in 5* hotels have no idea what combat is like' sort of comments. Particular bile was directed at Jeremy Bowen, who has been under fire numerous times and escaped from a press vehicle shot up by the IDF and saw his best mate (Lebanese photographer IIRC) burn to death. Yeah, Snowflake cucks the lot of them.

Trouble is of course, that for every Jeremy Bowen there’s half-a-dozen Christiane Amanpours reporting on events in Bihac from 200km away and fudging it, or Kate Adies with their ‘don’t you know who I am’ rages.
 
Recalling how the scripts to 'Drop The Dead Donkey' were incredibly topical at the time and also various satirical TV progs, it's a shame that your experiences couldn't have more exposure to give greater context to current affairs.

It's funny you should say that:

The journo, who was threatened with death by the Hez that I've mentioned, had been watching our colleagues in Haifa doing 'lives': Their reports were occasionally punctuated by rockets landing nearby. Naturally he was very jealous of this appearance of danger and ruggedness.

When he did his next live report he donned his helmet and armour and mid flow, would give the odd glance up to the skies, apparently fearful of imminent attack. I was watching all this from another loction and was able to reach the cameraman on the comms. I tried to get the bloke to zoom out but despite my threats and bribes he wouldn't..

If he had zoomed out he would have revealed the fact that the BBC, Sky and ABC, next to the Fox position, were all sitting around in shorts, chatting and sipping cokes in completely zero peril.
 
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Trouble is of course, that for every Jeremy Bowen there’s half-a-dozen Christiane Amanpours reporting on events in Bihac from 200km away and fudging it, or Kate Adies with their ‘don’t you know who I am’ rages.

That's true.
To be fair I've done both: The 'tourist war', where I've stayed in a plush hotel and travelled to the the hot spot for the day and then returned to the bar afterwards.

Being a 'safe distance' can still go wrong.
I've 'come under fire' a good 2k from a firefight when a DShK overshot and the rounds landed near us. The first we were aware was when the stones and dust flew up... way before we heard the firing.

I've also done the opposite, sneaking in over the border, hooking up with YPG, living on floors and and having to run away (about 4 times last count!) when it's gone tits up. The Amanpours and Adies have roughed it in the past as well to be fair but like me, are now past it.
 
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It wasn't that long ago there was a thread on here which degenerated into name-calling of journalists in conflict zones who were criticised for being open about the stresses they had been under. It was the typical 'leftie snowflake BBC reporters staying in 5* hotels have no idea what combat is like' sort of comments. Particular bile was directed at Jeremy Bowen, who has been under fire numerous times and escaped from a press vehicle shot up by the IDF and saw his best mate (Lebanese photographer IIRC) burn to death. Yeah, Snowflake cucks the lot of them.

Whereas I at least got to suggest, F2F, that the Daily Mirrors Defence Correspondent was inbred* before clarifying a few details on his lack of Falklands knowledge.

*In a fun way - he was ok.
 
It's quite rare to be attacked by biggles nowadays. Most of the large conflicts I've covered have established air superiority by the good guys.
In the films someone shouts 'aircraft take cover etc..' in reality they fire from so far off that the first anyone is aware is the impact.

well this was 1982 and we certainly had time to see and hear the Syrian aircraft that attacked us. The IAF though came as a total surprise - simultaneous screech and boom.
 
It's funny you should say that:

The journo who was threatened with death by the Hez that I've mentioned had been watching our colleagues in Haifa doing 'lives': Their reports were occasionally punctuated by rockets landing nearby. Naturally he was very jealous of this appearance of danger and ruggedness.

When he did his next live report he donned his helmet and armour and mid flow, would give the odd glance up to the skies, apparently fearful of imminent attack. I was watching all this from another location and was able to reach the cameraman on the comms. I tried to get the bloke to zoom out but despite my threats and bribes he wouldn't..

If he had zoomed out he would have revealed the fact that the BBC, Sky and ABC next to the Fox position, were all sitting around in shorts, chatting and sipping cokes in completely zero peril.

reminds me of that septic weather man
 
well this was 1982 and we certainly had time to see and hear the Syrian aircraft that attacked us. The IAF though came as a total surprise - simultaneous screech and boom.

Was anyone in the CoC able to trace the IAF bloke responsible. A friend of mine and his cameraman were killed in Iraq by US Marines in an own goal. ITN identified them but there was no follow up.
 
It wasn't that long ago there was a thread on here which degenerated into name-calling of journalists in conflict zones who were criticised for being open about the stresses they had been under. It was the typical 'leftie snowflake BBC reporters staying in 5* hotels have no idea what combat is like' sort of comments. Particular bile was directed at Jeremy Bowen, who has been under fire numerous times and escaped from a press vehicle shot up by the IDF and saw his best mate (Lebanese photographer IIRC) burn to death. Yeah, Snowflake cucks the lot of them.

Bowen turned out to be the snowflake in the case you mention. Having recklessly tried to get a TV news scoop by having his Lebanese mate take them to a spot in between opposing forces in the middle of an unprecedented battle (Hezbollah advancing towards the Israeli border) he had a hissy fit when they took a hit.
On my first stint of reserve service, my platoon was conducting the afternoon patrol through villages in the Chouf mountains when we got caught in the middle between Druze and Phalangist militias as they opened fire on one another. It got pretty hairy even though we weren't their intended targets. I can see no possible justification for advancing into such a situation just to make a TV report.
 
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