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BBC: Ratko Mladic jailed for life over Bosnia war genocide

#21
Agreed. My point was he had started his vileness in the early 90's, atrocities all done 3 or 4 years later.
So 13, 15 or so years before the cnut comes before a war crimes trial.
That was my point.
And remember, some people on this site knew he was a mass murderer way before a Court case said so .
"Some people" would include myself. Your reference to "the process" could have been interpreted as the legal process. I'm now clear that you meant the entire history of international intervention and non-intervention.
 
#22
As in the case with Baha Mousa, for example.

From my point of view any unlawful killing during a war is a war crime. So I don't see contradiction here.
There is a big distance between war crimes and genocide.
No doubt that all sides in Bosnian and other Yugoslav wars are guilty in numerous war crimes.
But genocide?
Accusations in genocide are clearly politically motivated.
How many deaths in your opinion qualify as genocide? Do you see any difference between the outrageous and tragic death of Baha Mousa, not intended by any higher political or military command authority whatever their faults and omissions, and the large numbers of civilians intentionally exterminated at Srebrenica?

The crimes committed against Serb villagers by Muslim forces from within the enclave, often overlooked in discussion of Srebrenica, could arguably justify a military attack on the enclave but never the acts which followed.
 
#23
Whether they are or not, they do reflect the reality on the ground.
Indeed, they reflect realities in modern politics.Though ... more right realities that existed 10-15-20 years ago.
But we live in fast changing World. New realities are being created and (for example) any attempts to establish Tribunal for Syria would fail.
 
#24
Indeed, they reflect realities in modern politics.Though ... more right realities that existed 10-15-20 years ago.
But we live in fast changing World. New realities are being created and (for example) any attempts to establish Tribunal for Syria would fail.
You may well be right. Is impunity for war criminals a good thing?
 
#25
As you may see I quoted (to back my point) the judgements approved by the Hague Tribunal. I propose you to do the same thing - to quote transcripts, judgements and so on to back your point.
It's fair play.
No I don't. I am suggesting that if you wish to say that the court erred in its judgement or that it was factually wrong in its interpretation of the evidence, it is for you to do the reading and quoting. What you are suggesting is nothing to do with fair play, for I am not playing your game. You want to accuse the court of bias or improperly sentencing the criminal Mladic it is up to you to prove your case.

If you are correct I am sure you will be able to let the Trial Chamber know and they will set aside their verdict and replace it with one more palatable to you. After all they sat through the entire trial and heard all the evidence set forth by both the Prosecution and Defence. They listened to the witness testimony of the victims and others. Did you?
 
#26
How many deaths in your opinion qualify as genocide?
It is not so easy question. Even one death of innocent human being is a tragedy. But it is important not to devalue the very term genocide by using it arbitrary in any situation especially as a political tool.
Let's look at this example
World War II persecution of Serbs - Wikipedia
The World War II persecution of Serbs includes the extermination, expulsion and forced religious conversion of large numbers of ethnic Serbs by the Ustaše regime in the Independent State of Croatia
The number of Serbs murdered by the Ustaše is the subject of much debate and estimates vary widely. Yad Vashem estimates that over 500,000 were murdered, 250,000 were expelled and 200,000 were forcibly converted to Catholicism
So in my view genocide means intentional murder of significant proportion of ethnical group without any exceptions - men, women, children, the old. In absolute numbers genocide means hundreds or at least tens thousands killed.
Do you see any difference between the outrageous and tragic death of Baha Mousa, not intended by any higher political or military command authority whatever their faults and omissions, and the large numbers of civilians intentionally exterminated at Srebrenica?
I don't see big difference. In both cases military commanders didn't order to torture, to kill. But the war has own logic. Would you understand Serb soldier whose village was burned, whose relatives were killed by Muslim soldiers during raid from Srebrenica?
Gen.Mladic ordered and conducted total evacuation of women, children and the old. Bosnian Serbs needed Muslim POWs for exchange. So gen.Mladic apparenly was not interesting just in mass killings. It contradicts to common sense. Also number of unlawfully killed is likely greatly overestimated.
The crimes committed against Serb villagers by Muslim forces from within the enclave, often overlooked in discussion of Srebrenica, could arguably justify a military attack on the enclave but never the acts which followed.
As for military commanders then couldn't agree more. But as for Bosnian Serb soldiers who lived in the area of Srebrenica then they had
a reason to disagre with your (absolutely correct) statement.
 
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#27
You may well be right. Is impunity for war criminals a good thing?
No, of course it is not right.
How should captured officers and moreover generals be treated according to the Geneva convention? Right - with due respect.
Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, 75 U.N.T.S. 135, entered into force Oct. 21, 1950.
Article 44
Officers and prisoners of equivalent status shall be treated with the regard due to their rank and age.
Article 45
Prisoners of war other than officers and prisoners of equivalent status shall be treated with the regard due to their rank and age.
Now, let's recall this case
Abed Hamed Mowhoush - Wikipedia
Abed Hamed Mowhoush (Arabic "عبد حامد موحوش") was an air vice-marshal believed to be in command of the transport, logistics and airlifting division of the Iraqi Air Force during the regime of Saddam Hussein immediately prior to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq,
He died on 26 November 2003 while in U.S. custody at the Al-Qaim detention facility approximately 200 miles (320 km) northwest of Baghdad, following a 16-day period of detention that included intense beatings and the use of violent and illegal torture.
It was inside the sleeping bag that the 56-year-old detainee took his last breath through broken ribs, lying on the floor beneath a U.S. soldier in Interrogation Room 6 in the western Iraqi desert. Two days before, a secret CIA-sponsored group of Iraqi paramilitaries, working with Army interrogators, had beaten Mowhoush nearly senseless, using fists, a club and a rubber hose, according to classified documents
You speak about punishment. Let's look how it looked in this case.
On January 21, 2006, an American military jury convicted Welshofer of negligent homicide in the death of Mowhoush. A military jury ordered a reprimand and forfeiture of $6,000 in pay, and restricted him to his home, office and church for two months
 
#28
Kindly do one. We are talking about thousands of people being murdered by your Serb pals and all you can bring up are irrelevant killings taking place decades later. As for your claim that Mladic should have been treated with the respect due to his rank as a general? Pardon me while I restrain myself from pissing with laughter. At the time of his apprehension, the mass murdering bastard was a civilian, not any form of officer.
 
#29
Kindly do one. We are talking about thousands of people being murdered by your Serb pals and all you can bring up are irrelevant killings taking place decades later. As for your claim that Mladic should have been treated with the respect due to his rank as a general? Pardon me while I restrain myself from pissing with laughter. At the time of his apprehension, the mass murdering bastard was a civilian, not any form of officer.
No, I meant that the Iraq general had to be treated by US military personnel with due respect.
Apparently US military would not transfer any US citizen to any international court or tribunal to be tried for war crimes.
I answered to the question.
You may well be right. Is impunity for war criminals a good thing?
Indeed, it is important to punish war criminals but $6000 fine and 2 months restiction in movement look as disproportional punishment for brutal murder during torture of POW in the rank of general.
 
#30
I'm somewhat irritated that it took so many years to resolve the matter.
 
#31
I'm somewhat irritated that it took so many years to resolve the matter.
Quality of the Tribunal is softly speaking doubtful.
You may disagree but in my opinion the Tribunal is politically motivated and manipulated from Washington.
Let's recall this case
Vojislav Šešelj - Wikipedia
Vojislav Šešelj ... voluntarily surrendered to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) in February 2003
It was his mistake. He naively believed that the Tribunal would strictly follow principles of justice.
...but his trial did not begin until November 2007
4 and half years in detention without trial. Can you as a policeman imagine something of this sort in the UK?
After spending 11 years in detention in the United Nations Detention Unit of Scheveningen during his trial, Šešelj was permitted to temporarily return to Serbia in November 2014 to undergo cancer treatment.
11 years in detention! Is it fair especially taking into acocunt that
On 31 March 2016, he was acquitted in a first-instance verdict on all counts by the ICTY pending appeal
There is in fact nothing to incriminate. Judges and their Washington masters just are waitingfor his death and continue imitation of fair trial.
The acquittal was appealed by prosecutors from the MICT, a United Nations Security Council agency which functions as oversight program of, and successor entity to, the ICTY.
So what is quality of the Tribunal in comparison with British standards?
 
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#32
So, is our Russian Apologist actually suggesting this is a travesty of justice?

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#33
Quality of the Tribunal is softly speaking doubtful.
You may disagree but in my opinion the Tribunal is politically motivated and manipulated from Washington.
Let's recall this case
Vojislav Šešelj - Wikipedia

It was his mistake. He naively believed that the Tribunal would strictly follow principles of justice.

4 and half years in detention without trial. Can you as a policeman imagine something of this sort in the UK?

11 years in detention! Is it fair especially taking into acocunt that

There is in fact nothing to incriminate. Judges and their Washington masters just are waiting his death and continue imitation of fair trial.

So what is quality of the Tribunal in comparison with British standards?
Of course it was politically motivated as well as being motivated by the deaths of the many people who died during this conflict.

Not unlike the Nuremburg Trials. Similar type defendant, similar type crimes.
 
#34
So, is our Russian Apologist actually suggesting this is a travesty of justice?
In my opinion, yes.
Naser Orić - Wikipedia
Naser Orić (born 3 March 1967) is a former Bosnian military officer who commanded Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (ARBiH) forces in the Srebrenica enclave
In 2006, he was sentenced to two years' imprisonment by the Trial Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia
On 3 July 2008, the Appeals Chamber of the ICTY reversed the Trial Chamber's conviction and acquitted Orić of all charges brought against him
Namely mr.Oric, in violation of special status of Srebrenica enclave, ordered raids deep inside Serb controlled territory when many houses were burned, people killed, robbered.
Namely he in fact provoked the Serbs to eliminate this wasps nest.
So why he was finally acquitted?
For political reasons. Washington decided to portray the Serbs as evil murderers and Bosnian Muslims as innocent victims.
Look at him
 
#35
In my opinion, yes.
Naser Orić - Wikipedia



Namely mr.Oric, in violation of special status of Srebrenica enclave, ordered raids deep inside Serb controlled territory when many houses were burned, people killed, robbered.
Namely he in fact provoked the Serbs to eliminate this wasps nest.
So why he was finally acquitted?
For political reasons. Washington decided to portray the Serbs as evil murderers and Bosnian Muslims as innocent victims.
Look at him
"There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience. A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel."
 
#36
"There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience. A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel."
I think this may reasonably apply to all parties in a conflict.
 
#37
"There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience. A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel."
I think this may reasonably apply to all parties in a conflict.
Couldn't agree more.
Meanwhile
War-crimes suspect ingests 'poison' at court ruling - CNN
A war-crimes appeal hearing was halted just after the verdict was announced on Wednesday, when the defendant claimed to have taken poison.

Footage from the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) at The Hague showed Slobodan Praljak, a 72-year-old former Bosnian Croat general, tilt his head back and drink from a small glass bottle as the presiding judge read out the verdict.
20 years in his case equal to life sentence.
in my opinion the verdict is absurd and the Bosnian-Croatian general was choosen (among 5 otherss) as a scape-goat.
 
#38
For political reasons. Washington decided to portray the Serbs as evil murderers and Bosnian Muslims as innocent victims.
Look at him
And? Is he guilty of a war crime because of an offensive face? A poor hair style?
 
#40
And? Is he guilty of a war crime because of an offensive face? A poor hair style?
Poor hair style? Yes he is not bald but shamelessly bold.
As for guilt then one point is undisputable. He ordered, instigated military operations from UN established safe zone. In this context he should be punished unconditionally.
 

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