BBC Poll on Torture

#1
The BBC has done a World Wide 'Poll' and says the majoraty of people are aginst torture.
Strangely it does not list the actual words of the question asked.
I don't aprove of torture and I have said before we had a BBC TV program where a US university Proffesor of Law was arguing that if Torture must be used then it must be legalized as in Elizabethan England.
There a high offical signed a document authorising torture in the national intrest.
The yanks have now approved use of 'Mild' torture in their War against Terror.
Same old story who wouldn't approve if the lives of their nearest and dearest was at risk.
john
I probably would much as I detest the thought.
 
#2
Ok, heres the scenario.

Terrorist cell intends to hijack and fly 3 civilian airliners into designated targets in London, Manchester and Edinburgh. The plan is at the final stages of the attack cycle and has not been detected by security services.

At the last moment, one of the terrorists fcuks up and is arrested. He refuses to answer any questions, however it's confirmed that a major attack of some description is going downdown and the clock is ticking. Would those people taking part in the BBC poll and living in the cities listed above, find it unacceptable if doctor torture was invited into the party? mmm.....
 
#3
If by torture you mean slap them around a bit, maybe, it depends.

If by torture you mean you mean nail their hands to a table until they talk, then no.


If a terrorist refuses to answer a question, and a cop/soldier whacks him upside the head, I won't lose too much sleep.
 
#4
muzzleflash said:
Ok, heres the scenario.

Terrorist cell intends to hijack and fly 3 civilian airliners into designated targets in London, Manchester and Edinburgh. The plan is at the final stages of the attack cycle and has not been detected by security services.

At the last moment, one of the terrorists fcuks up and is arrested. He refuses to answer any questions, however it's confirmed that a major attack of some description is going downdown and the clock is ticking. Would those people taking part in the BBC poll and living in the cities listed above, find it unacceptable if doctor torture was invited into the party? mmm.....
Do you not think that in such a situation, they would not be the best people to ask?

Because they wondn't be very objective and cool-headed and all that...
 
#5
Torture might be efficient in the short term but look what happened with the French 10th Parachute division in Algiers in 1957; a socialist government (rings a bell ?) gave them a carte blanche to deal with the FLN terrorist attacks against cafés, discos, stadium etc. which had killed and maimed dozens of civilians.
In a matter of weeks and with the use of torture, they broke the FLN infrastructure and bombs stopped exploding.
50 years down the line, what's left ? that the French army used torture against a "national liberation movement", not that the soldiers turned tormentors had actually saved the lives of hundreds of civilians, both French and locals, by arresting and sometimes killing the terrorists.
The heroes of yesterdays are now seen as a blemish on the country's history and the algerians are using it daily as a way of pressuring the French Gvt into apologies, conviniently forgetting the thousands the FLN murdered and maimed between 1954 and 1962.
 
#7
I have no infos on that but what is sure is that a number of FLN prisoners were executed either in the "heat of the action" or deliberatly after having been interrogated.

One eyed General Aussaresses (a former Free French Jedburgh...) who was one of the chief tormentors in Algeria recognized it in a book he wrote some years ago.
 
#8
Chief_Joseph said:
If by torture you mean slap them around a bit, maybe, it depends.

If by torture you mean you mean nail their hands to a table until they talk, then no.


If a terrorist refuses to answer a question, and a cop/soldier whacks him upside the head, I won't lose too much sleep.
But suppose that he is not a terrorist but law-abiding citizen detained by mistake. Suppose that you (God forbid) would be detained because some real terrorists would mention you in their papers. I'm sure you would not be pleased.
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#9
Chief_Joseph said:
If by torture you mean slap them around a bit, maybe, it depends.

If by torture you mean you mean nail their hands to a table until they talk, then no.

If a terrorist refuses to answer a question, and a cop/soldier whacks him upside the head, I won't lose too much sleep.
So torture is ok as long as you define what torture is? It's more a yes/no answer than shades of grey, surely? Where does "slapping around" end and torture start? More to the point, does it work? I'm pretty sure you can get most people to confess to anything if you hurt them enough.
 
#10
muzzleflash said:
Ok, heres the scenario.

Terrorist cell intends to hijack and fly 3 civilian airliners into designated targets in London, Manchester and Edinburgh. The plan is at the final stages of the attack cycle and has not been detected by security services.

At the last moment, one of the terrorists fcuks up and is arrested. He refuses to answer any questions, however it's confirmed that a major attack of some description is going downdown and the clock is ticking. Would those people taking part in the BBC poll and living in the cities listed above, find it unacceptable if doctor torture was invited into the party? mmm.....
Ok, heres the scenario.

Terrorist cell intends to hijack and fly 3 civilian airliners into designated targets in London, Manchester and Edinburgh. The plan is at the final stages of the attack cycle and has not been detected by security services.

At the last moment the security services get some info on this nefarious plot and your name is mentioned in connection, so you get arrested.
You of course have nothing to do with this plot but you did sell a secondhand car to the brothers uncles first cousin to one of the terrorists.
After your genitals have been wired to the mains, your feet have been blowtorched for an hour or so and a red hot poker is inserted in your fundament you are asked if you agree that doctor torture was welcome to the party.

Better to torture one innocent man than 100 guilty go free?
 
#12
Steven said:
muzzleflash said:
Ok, heres the scenario.

Terrorist cell intends to hijack and fly 3 civilian airliners into designated targets in London, Manchester and Edinburgh. The plan is at the final stages of the attack cycle and has not been detected by security services.

At the last moment, one of the terrorists fcuks up and is arrested. He refuses to answer any questions, however it's confirmed that a major attack of some description is going downdown and the clock is ticking. Would those people taking part in the BBC poll and living in the cities listed above, find it unacceptable if doctor torture was invited into the party? mmm.....
Ok, heres the scenario.

At the last moment the security services get some info on this nefarious plot and your name is mentioned in connection, so you get arrested.
You of course have nothing to do with this plot but you did sell a secondhand car to the brothers uncles first cousin to one of the terrorists.
After your genitals have been wired to the mains, your feet have been blowtorched for an hour or so and a red hot poker is inserted in your fundament you are asked if you agree that doctor torture was welcome to the party.

Better to torture one innocent man than 100 guilty go free?
All sounds great Stevie, except for the small issue of you having to read my post again. In it you'll notice the line " At the last moment one of terrorists fcuks up and is arrested" as apposed to "Stan, the white van man fcuks up and is arrested". The point I was making is that in extreme situations and where the threat of mass slaughter is present, then a bellend wired to the mains is helpfull. My 20p worth.
 
#13
muzzleflash said:
All sounds great Stevie, except for the small issue of you having to read my post again. In it you'll notice the line " At the last moment one of terrorists fcuks up and is arrested" as apposed to "Stan, the white van man fcuks up and is arrested". The point I was making is that in extreme situations and where the threat of mass slaughter is present, then a bellend wired to the mains is helpfull. My 20p worth.
THis is the standard excuse for torture.

Name one instance in history when torturing terrorists has forced them to disclose the location of a ticking bomb.
 
#14
Pteranadon said:
THis is the standard excuse for torture.

Name one instance in history when torturing terrorists has forced them to disclose the location of a ticking bomb.
Probably difficult to do as no-one is going to put their hand up to admitting torture!!!!
 
#15
muzzleflash said:
All sounds great Stevie, except for the small issue of you having to read my post again. In it you'll notice the line " At the last moment one of terrorists fcuks up and is arrested" as apposed to "Stan, the white van man fcuks up and is arrested". The point I was making is that in extreme situations and where the threat of mass slaughter is present, then a bellend wired to the mains is helpfull. My 20p worth.
Guilty until you have screamed enough to prove that you are innocent?
 
#16
I cant quite understand why this is being discussed at all. Why do we bother to grow and develop as a nation, then attempt to legislate ourselves back to the dark ages?

Torture has no place in our justice system. The cost to us as a democracy is too high to even contemplate using torture to gain intelligence. We would make ourselves no better than Nazi's. Torture now, whats next? Internment camps for people who dont meet a certain "profile"?
 
#17
muzzleflash said:
Ok, heres the scenario.

Terrorist cell intends to hijack and fly 3 civilian airliners into designated targets in London, Manchester and Edinburgh. The plan is at the final stages of the attack cycle and has not been detected by security services.

At the last moment, one of the terrorists fcuks up and is arrested. He refuses to answer any questions, however it's confirmed that a major attack of some description is going downdown and the clock is ticking. Would those people taking part in the BBC poll and living in the cities listed above, find it unacceptable if doctor torture was invited into the party? mmm.....
Almost exactly this happened with :x Marion and Doloures Price in 1973. They were arrested at Heathrow whist the clocks were ticking.
An armchair debate which must have wound up in police and parliamentary circles took place at the time with no decision to officially introduce torture in cases of emergency. Mind you there was enough police brutality back then. I think this country has just gone too far on "human rights" which plays into the hands of terrorists.
Remember last Year when those 2 CTUNS were made to strip off at gunpoint, all they could do was drip about their "rights". :x
 
#18
As I started this debate I'll add a little more.
I do not approve of torture, however as I said if I beleived my Loves ones where the intended 'Victims' then I do not doubt for one second that I would aprove of some rough stuff. Born Hipocrite ai'n I.
What has frieghtened me in the debat so far is the "mains to genitals, red hot poker up the jacksee" all the Gestapo / Kempi Tai stuff.
I am no expert but I understand that back in WW II the UK used very Strict methods of interogation, roughing up, slapping around to unsettle a prisoner prior to 'Interview' but no elctrical, burning or drowning techniques.
Please lets not bring this debate down to civ police methods and above all I am of the opinion that IF any method of Torture is used it MUST be Authoriesd by National Law and not left to the man at the bottom of the chain of command to 'Get' the information out of the Bstard.
john
I am aware of the skin alive method said to have been used on the CIA director of operations in Lebanon, or the other old tale of feet first into a furnace.
 
#19
There was a programme on C4 a while back when members of the public who favoured torture volunteered to be placed in a Gitmo-type camp, complete with sneering Spam interrogators.

None of them lasted 24 hours after a few beastings and stress positions, and they all admitted to having second thoughts afterwards IIRC.
 
#20
The British Govt are no strangers to torture.
from the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1231978,00.html#article_continue

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/intern/pdfs/faul.pdf

http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/features/ba-torture/

http://republican-news.org/archive/1998/December17/17tort.html

The RUC spent years torturing innocent Irishmen and women and achieved bugger all. Thankfully the RUC no longer exist (PSNI a much better name) and due to a policy of positive discrimination young catholic man and women are finally being welcomed into the force.
 

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