BBC is not openly pro-Iarael

#21
Perhaps its just because the Israelis are a democratic country with an establised military not a bunch of teenagers with weaponry blowing themselves up? I hope the Israeli chap gets back ok.
 
#22
dan_man said:
.....I hope the Israeli chap gets back ok.
Sadly, I don think there is much hope for him. I am dubious if any negotiated agreement will be reached and reaching a prisoner for a rescue into enemy territory is a risky business, which will probably end in his death.

The IDF is not moving YET, but I suspect that if a (currently delayed) incursory operation happens it will be a large one.
 
#23
KGB_resident said:
Hi Gallowglass!

gallowglass said:
Palestinian militants (that's touchy-feely speak for 'terrorists') are not representative of any legally established sovereign political entity
Israel forbids a creation of Palestinian state so Palestinians are not guilty that they haven't their own "political entity".
And with good reason (national suicide not being something the Israelis are inclined towards)... However, the whether or not of Palestinians having their own state is not the point of debate here - the fact is that 'they' don't (in the same way as ETA don't; one wonders if the Palestinian people actually feel 'represented' by suicide-vest wearing 'militants'?).

KGB_resident said:
gallowglass said:
... - Israeli soldiers are. Therein lies the difference.

Do you similiarly feel that that the jihadists who abducted, murdered and mutiliated (and booby-trapped the remains of) the two American paratroopers are morally and legally comparable to members of the Coalition forces in Iraq?
No of course. Coalition troops are invadors that committed many war-crimes (if you disagree then we can discuss it with concrete examples) while Iraqis fight on their soil and are free to use any means to push out foreign invadors.

So I absolutely agree with you. From moral point of view we can't use an equal sign.
Leaving aside your sweeping generalisation regarding Coalition troops (if you like we can also discuss the behaviour of the Russian Army in Chechnya), are you not forgetting that a good proportion of the jihadists/insurgents/[insert comfortable term here] are not in fact Iraqi, or have such personages as Al-Zarqawi already been forgotten?

KGB_resident said:
I don't know about uniforms. Maybe yes, maybe no. Thay were armed and weapons in their hands were anyway thei "uniforms"
Take a wild guess regarding the question of whether these 'militants' were wearing uniforms or not...your last point would have a hard time getting past the designation of 'uniform' as understood in international law (Geneva Convention et al).

When the Israeli education system teaches its schoolchildren to praise and emulate suicide bombers as is the case in the Palestinian Authority, then we'll talk about moral equivalance.
 
#24
Perevodchik said:
KGB_resident said:
Well. Let look at this situation more closely. Do you agree with these statements.

1. There is a conflic between Israel and Palestinians. From my point of view both sides have equal rights.

2. Palestinians performed a military action. It is not a terror act.

3. In a military conflict any side has a natural right to capture POWs.

By the way suppose that somebody (a civilian) is captured by soldiers (or militants) and as a result he is beaten to death in a custody. Can we use a word "kidnapped"? I think that no and hope that you agree with me.

Of course Sergey, you would be more than happy to delete 'Israel' and 'Palestine' and insert 'Russia' and 'Chechnya'?

Wouldn't you?
Chechen conflict is an internal one. Russia declares that Chechnya is a part of Russian Federation. By contrast Israel annexed only East Jerusalem. The West Bank and Gaza are not parts of Israel even from Israeli point of view. So Israel/Pelestine conflict is an international one and comparison with Chechnya is not quit correct. Though from my point of view Chechen fighters performed many military operations (not only terror acts).
 
#25
KGB_resident said:
Chechen conflict is an internal one. Russia declares that Chechnya is a part of Russian Federation. By contrast Israel annexed only East Jerusalem. The West Bank and Gaza are not part of Israel even from Israeli point of view. So Israel/Pelestine conflict is an international one.
Ah, Russia declares, so it must be so!

Commie Pinko propaganda!
 
#26
Gallowglass!

You think that Israel has a good reason to forbid a creation of Palestinian state. Does it mean that any military activity of Palestinians is unlawfull? What lawfull methods would you propose to the Palestinians.

I think that the recent attack is an example of this sort. It is an example of lawfull military action. Probably you disagree. Then say what was wrong? Suppose that Palestinians wore uniforms. Was the action unlawfull even in this case?

Comparison with ETA is uncorrect. The conflict in Spain is an internal one. It rather has much in common with NI problem. Basques and the Irish are citizens, have full civil and electoral rights. By contrast, Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank are not citizens of any state and their lands is not belonged to any state (only East Jerusalem has been annexed).
 
#27
Hi Gallow :D

gallowglass said:
And with good reason (national suicide not being something the Israelis are inclined towards)... However, the whether or not of Palestinians having their own state is not the point of debate here - the fact is that 'they' don't (in the same way as ETA don't; one wonders if the Palestinian people actually feel 'represented' by suicide-vest wearing 'militants'?).
Now, if the Israelis (and others) continue to deny the Palestinians the right to a state, then Israel for some self destructive reason,
they will continue to to give a group of people (however non-representative they are) an opportunity to inflict harm on the the state of Israel. On the question on whether the general Palestinian populace feels represented by suicide bombers - I think the the real question is that 'Do the Palestinians feel empowered by the suicide bombers?' - they are the weaker group but through the suicide bomber, they have a way of striking back against the more powerful opponent.
Finally though you are right to say that national suicide is not something modern Israel is inclined too (as neither are the Palestinians) the Masada 'myth' (myth as in mode for providing meaning) was very important cultural prop in the formation of the State of Israel, so it use by Zionists to ferment cohesion amongst the then disparate Israeli cultural groups.


Take a wild guess regarding the question of whether these 'militants' were wearing uniforms or not...your last point would have a hard time getting past the designation of 'uniform' as understood in international law (Geneva Convention et al).
I would say that in most cases of state formation - normal rules or conventions often don't apply. As one actor could be dealing with multiple non state actors. So it may be unfair that one actor (the Israelis) are bound by norms and conventions which they may or may not adhere too but who said being a member of the civilised world was fair? States are hardly ever created or formed by recognised oppositional actors, that only comes in the final years before retrenchment.

When the Israeli education system teaches its schoolchildren to praise and emulate suicide bombers as is the case in the Palestinian Authority, then we'll talk about moral equivalance.
Neither side is perfect, both sides degenerate the other and especially so in a conflict situation.
 
#28
Capt_Cuddlebunny said:
KGB_resident said:
Chechen conflict is an internal one. Russia declares that Chechnya is a part of Russian Federation. By contrast Israel annexed only East Jerusalem. The West Bank and Gaza are not part of Israel even from Israeli point of view. So Israel/Pelestine conflict is an international one.
Ah, Russia declares, so it must be so!

Commie Pinko propaganda!
Didn't you know the Russian army is only in Chechnya to hand out sweeties, rebuild infrastructure and look pretty. There never have been and never will be any human rights abuses. The Chechens have no rights to their own country and culture, all those captured can be incarcerated. Sergey - if Chechen rebels were to capture russian soldiers would it be kidnap?
 
#29
castlereagh said:
Hi Gallow :D

gallowglass said:
And with good reason (national suicide not being something the Israelis are inclined towards)... However, the whether or not of Palestinians having their own state is not the point of debate here - the fact is that 'they' don't (in the same way as ETA don't; one wonders if the Palestinian people actually feel 'represented' by suicide-vest wearing 'militants'?).
Now, if the Israelis (and others) continue to deny the Palestinians the right to a state, then Israel for some self destructive reason will continue to to give a group of people (however non-representative they are) an opportunity to inflict harm on the the state of Israel.
Howde do Mam'zel C. :wink:

Your point has merit, and at present would appear to be borne out on a daily basis...but I still think the Israelis are correct, and I don't believe that an actual de jure Palestinian state would be any better for Israel. Then again, there is also the uncomfortable demographic fact - as you yourself raised, I believe - that the Arab Israeli population is on course to overtake the Jewish Israeli population.

castlereagh said:
On the question on whether the general Palestinian populace feels represented by suicide bombers - I think the the real question is that 'Do the Palestinians feel empowered by the suicide bombers?' - they are the weaker group but through the suicide bomber they have a way of striking back against the more powerful opponent.
Again, a valid point, which gives rise to the rhetorical question of 'Yes, and if so, why do they feel empowered by suicide bombers, and does it not bespeak a rather diseased political and civic society?'

castlereagh said:
Finally though you are right to say that national suicide is not something modern Israel is inclined too (as neither are the Palestinians) the Masada 'myth' (myth as in mode for providing meaning) was very important cultural prop in the formation of the State of Israel, so it use by Zionists to ferment cohesion amongst the then disparate Israeli cultural groups.
Yes, but the Israelis haven't sought to recreate Masada on a daily basis ever since - in terms of national suicide, it is almost entirely a Palestinian franchise.

castlereagh said:
gallowglass said:
Take a wild guess regarding the question of whether these 'militants' were wearing uniforms or not...your last point would have a hard time getting past the designation of 'uniform' as understood in international law (Geneva Convention et al).
I would say that in most cases of state formation - normal rules or conventions often don't apply. As one actor could be dealing with multiple non state actors. So it may be unfair that one actor (the Israelis) are bound by norms and conventions which they may or may not adhere too but who said being a member of the civilised world was fair? States are hardly ever created or formed by recognised oppositional actors, that only comes in the final years before retrenchment.
At the risk of sounding glib - you're right. However, should the Israelis be hamstrung by the 'life's a b*tch' school of history?

castlereagh said:
gallowglass said:
When the Israeli education system teaches its schoolchildren to praise and emulate suicide bombers as is the case in the Palestinian Authority, then we'll talk about moral equivalance.
Neither side is perfect, both sides degenerate the other and especially so in a conflict situation.
Indeed, but the Palestinians and the wider Arab and Muslim world are streets ahead of the Israelis in this regard.
 
#30
Capt_Cuddlebunny said:
KGB_resident said:
Chechen conflict is an internal one. Russia declares that Chechnya is a part of Russian Federation. By contrast Israel annexed only East Jerusalem. The West Bank and Gaza are not part of Israel even from Israeli point of view. So Israel/Pelestine conflict is an international one.
Ah, Russia declares, so it must be so!
Also other countries (including the UK and USA) recognize Chechnya as a part of Russia. And Russia along with many other countries recognize NI as a part of the UK.

I mentioned a well-known fact that Israel after it captured West Bank and Gaza in 1967 annexed only East Jerusalem and even hasn't declared other captured lands as its territory.
 
#31
crabby said:
Sergey - if Chechen rebels were to capture russian soldiers would it be kidnap?
No of course. It would be a capture of POWs. But if they would be civilians (not soldiers) then of course we should use a word "kidnapped". Equally, it Palestinians captured Israeli civilian then we could use a word "kidnapped" too.
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#32
[quote="KGB_resident
Chechen conflict is an internal one. Russia declares that Chechnya is a part of Russian Federation. .[/quote] So it becomes an internal conflict if one party "declares" that the other is part of its own territory. Rather like Iraq "declared" that Kuwait was really part of Iraq in 90/91? In a similar vein, therefore, the Israelis only have to "declare" the Palestinian territories to be part of Israel and we can all butt out and leave them to it?

Having said all that, this is possibly the first time I've heard of the BBC being accused of being pro-Israel. :eek:
 
#33
mora said:
Prisoner exchanges are a modern invention. In ancient times, it was, in most cases, more convenient to slaughter captured enemies rather than imprison and feed them.The system of weighting the value of captives has come to full flower in the contemporary Middle East, where Israel's huge regard for the value of Jewish lives has produced some very unequal exchanges.
I think you will find that prisoner exchanges and prisoner ransoming has been going on for an extremely long time. The slaughter of French prisoners at Agincourt was unusual, for instance, since they had monetary value as they could have been sold back to the French. Keeping prisoners of war as slaves was also extremely common, particularly in the Middle East (it's all over the Koran and Hadith).
 
#34
I must disagree with Arik here. I think there is a very good chance that Cpl Gilad Shalit will either be released or rescued. His captors will be under immense pressure from many parties in Gaza who feel, probably rightly, that the sword of Damocles is about to swing down on them. They will be pointing out that the Palestinians were comfortably occupying the moral high ground after the civilian deaths in Israeli strikes over the past couple of weeks. The taking of a hostage gives the moral initiative to Israel and entitles them to respond. Israel has a number of contingency plans up to and including re-occupation and the citizens of Gaza will be bracing themselves for the inevitable response. President Abbas will be closely involved as if can secure the release his standing will be boosted in the eyes of the man on the Tel Aviv omnibus.

Secondly, Shin Bet will be pulling out all the stops to locate him through their vast network of paid informers in Gaza. The last time the IDF traied to rescue a captured soldier was in 1994 when Cpl Nachshon Waxman was killed along with three of his captors. Many lessons were learned from this operation and the IDF are unlikely to repeat past mistakes.

Although Cpl Shalit was able to stumble away from Keren Shalom with his captors, he is wounded and infection may be the greatest threat to him. I wish him a safe return.
 
#35
Here's a radical idea, why don't all those who live in the area between the borders of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon etc form one democratic multi-faith state where arab and european immigrant jew, muslim, christian and jedhi knights live in peace with each other and make a fourtune out of tourism! Is that too much to ask?

Silly me, of course it is. Since when has muslim and democracy ever gone hand in hand! Since when has one group of people hell bent on the destruction of the other based on religion even given up that fight!
 
#36
gallowglass said:
Howde do Mam'zel C. :wink:

Your point has merit, and at present would appear to be borne out on a daily basis...but I still think the Israelis are correct, and I don't believe that an actual de jure Palestinian state would be any better for Israel. Then again, there is also the uncomfortable demographic fact - as you yourself raised, I believe - that the Arab Israeli population is on course to overtake the Jewish Israeli population.
Don't call me Ma'am, that it makes me sound like I am 40 or something, I am not even 30 yet.
Seriously though, how would the Israelis know if they don't actually negotiate (and I don't mean force terms on the Palestinians) with the Palestinians? Before the '67 war the then weaker state of Israel was able to co-exist with the then foreign controlled West Bank and Gaza? The majority on both sides need to realise this and not just pay lip service to the two states solution

Again, a valid point, which gives rise to the rhetorical question of 'Yes, and if so, why do they feel empowered by suicide bombers, and does it not bespeak a rather diseased political and civic society?'
I personally would say that the ruling elites and cultures of both sides are diseased but in any culture of resistance it is the one who engages in the actual act of resistance who is venerated. It's a shame really as I would say that in many ways it is the cultures of both the Palestinians and the Israelis which in many ways is the most vibrant and the most forward thinking of ME societies.

Yes, but the Israelis haven't sought to recreate Masada on a daily basis ever since - in terms of national suicide, it is almost entirely a Palestinian franchise.
That's an exaggeration and you know it's the Tamils who own the suicide bombing franchise.



At the risk of sounding glib - you're right. However, should the Israelis be hamstrung by the 'life's a b*tch' school of history?
Yeah and why not? Everyone else is and the Palestinians certainly are!


Indeed, but the Palestinians and the wider Arab and Muslim world are streets ahead of the Israelis in this regard.
The anti-Israeli and Anti-Jewish prejudice is shamefully ingrained in many aspects of popular culture but its the covert and subliminal degradation that is always the most harmful and many ways the most dangerous IMHO.
 
#37
Capt_Cuddlebunny said:
castlereagh said:
gallowglass said:
Howde do Mam'zel C. :wink:
He was actually calling you madamazel (dodgy spelling) so in fact, you're not some old dame, just a little French tart!

Feeling any better now? :wink:
No, because my hayfever has turned by eyes scarlet and I wont be out of of here till 5pm and to top it all off I now I have a craving for pomme au tarte.
 
#38
castlereagh said:
Capt_Cuddlebunny said:
castlereagh said:
gallowglass said:
Howde do Mam'zel C. :wink:
He was actually calling you madamazel (dodgy spelling) so in fact, you're not some old dame, just a little French tart!

Feeling any better now? :wink:
No, because my hayfever has turned by eyes scarlet and I wont be out of of here till 5pm and to top it all off I now I have a craving for pomme au tarte.
And there I was thinking I was being gallant and whatnot by using the abbreviated form of Mademoiselle...oh well. I'm shocked ( :omg: - see, shocked...) Capt_Cuddlebunny, that you would automatically assume that I am casting aspersions on Castlereagh's character (a young lady- not yet 30, then surely not a day over 21? - for whom I have the highest regard etc.).

*whisper* Please Castlereagh, don't call me pomme au tarte on this public forum :oops:
 
#39
gallowglass said:
And there I was thinking I was being gallant and whatnot by using the abbreviated form of Mademoiselle...oh well. I'm shocked ( :omg: - see, shocked...) Capt_Cuddlebunny, that you would automatically assume that I am casting aspersions on Castlereagh's character (a young lady- not yet 30, then surely not a day over 21? - for whom I have the highest regard etc.).

*whisper* Please Castlereagh, don't call me pomme au tarte on this public forum :oops:
Abbreivated form of Mademoiselle = MLLE and my little Pomme de terre, I would stop just right there! 8O
 
#40
castlereagh said:
gallowglass said:
And there I was thinking I was being gallant and whatnot by using the abbreviated form of Mademoiselle...oh well. I'm shocked ( :omg: - see, shocked...) Capt_Cuddlebunny, that you would automatically assume that I am casting aspersions on Castlereagh's character (a young lady- not yet 30, then surely not a day over 21? - for whom I have the highest regard etc.).

*whisper* Please Castlereagh, don't call me pomme au tarte on this public forum :oops:
Abbreivated form of Mademoiselle = MLLE and my little Pomme de terre, I would stop just right there! 8O
So 'tis, but to a noted boulevardier such as myself, it's mam'zel 8)

You say potato, I say...

Righto, flirtatious high-jinks and other jappery aside, where were we....ah yes, Israel *groan* :(

Stopping right now...
 

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