BBC - How the West invited China to eat its lunch

Yokel

LE
BBC - How the West invited China to eat its lunch

The promise, suggested by the likes of former US President Bill Clinton, was that "importing one of democracy's most cherished values, economic freedom", would enable the world's most populous nation to follow the path of political freedom too.

"When individuals have the power not just to dream, but to realise their dreams, they will demand a greater say," he said.

But that strategy failed. China began its ascent to its current status as the world's second biggest economy - and is on a seemingly inevitable path to becoming the world's biggest.

Indeed the US trade representative responsible for negotiating China's WTO deal, Charlene Barshefsky, told a Washington International Trade Association panel this week that China's economic model "somewhat disproved" the Western view that "you can't have an innovative society, and political control"
 
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The West sending all of its manufacturing to the PRC has done the impossible. . . It finally made communism economically viable.
 
More bang for your investment buck paying pennies per day for labour to make the things you sell elsewhere for top dollar. Why would you invest in say, UK based labour for example, where you would need to pay proper money for the work to be done.

And the communism bit isn’t my problem. I’m just making tons of money to stick in a tax haven somewhere.

I don’t even have to do it myself. I can lend capital to my mates and some of them will probably use the money to invest there and give me a very nice return on their investment in China. I just bank the profits in the Caymans or somewhere.

Isn’t that how it works these days? And they call themselves patriots!

 
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The West sending all of its manufacturing to the PRC has done the impossible. . . It finally made communism economically viable.
What China did was prove how shit communism was. As soon as they binned communism in all but name their economy took off spectacularly.

The same thing seems to be repeating itself in India. As soon as India binned university debating club style socialism their economy took off, although not as much as China's did.
 
What China did was prove how shit communism was. As soon as they binned communism in all but name their economy took off spectacularly.

The same thing seems to be repeating itself in India. As soon as India binned university debating club style socialism their economy took off, although not as much as China's did.
So China isn’t governed by a communist regime now?

Has anybody told the Chinese, especially the Chinese communists!
 
The BBC story suffers from the effort of trying to make the story seem more dramatic and insightful by trying to tie a major world trend to a single key event and date, the admission of China into the WTO.

That's not what actually happened though. China was already visibly successful without being a WTO member. The reason that China was asked to join the WTO was that the other members wanted to lower the barriers to entry into China's market as they saw this as a place in which a lot of money could be made. It was a two-way bargain, and China had to accept having lower tariff and non-tariff barriers for entry into their market in order to get the same for other markets.

The thing that has the US upset is stated right in the story and is this bit quoted below. The Chinese went beyond the place in the world that others had assigned for them. In the eyes of others they were getting above themselves.
China has used WTO membership to go well beyond its earmarked role as workshop to the West.

If you ask the average American former manufacturing worker now doing much less well paid employment as to where his job went, he'll tell you Mexico, not China. However Washington don't generally have a problem with Mexico, as the Mexicans know their place in the world and don't try to rise above it.

The one exception to this in Washington was Trump, as he correctly perceived that for the average American industrial worker Mexico was seen as a bigger threat than China. This was a big part of Trump's success in his original election to office.

China have a population of 1.4 billion people. Once they actually started developing there was no way that China were not going to be a major factor in the world. It's basic math.

India have a population not much less than China's, and they too are growing fast. Some time after mid century they are expected to surpass the US in terms of the size of their economy. They are another country who aren't going to accept being told what their place is in the world.

This is the world of our future and we need to understand how to thrive in a world that looks more like the post-Napoleonic era where there were multiple competing great powers.
 
So China isn’t governed by a communist regime now?

Has anybody told the Chinese, especially the Chinese communists!
The government call themselves a Communist Party, but that has nothing to do with how the economy actually works.

China have stopped following the model of the Soviet Union and instead are following the models of Japan and South Korea.
 

Daxx

MIA
Book Reviewer
I thought China's main export these days was pandemics and the various tools to fight pandemics, eg LFT kits etc.
 
More bang for your investment buck paying pennies per day for labour to make the things you sell elsewhere for top dollar. Why would you invest in say, UK based labour for example, where you would need to pay proper money for the work to be done.

And the communism bit isn’t my problem. I’m just making tons of money to stick in a tax haven somewhere.

I don’t even have to do it myself. I can lend capital to my mates and some of them will probably use the money to invest there and give me a very nice return on their investment in China. I just bank the profits in the Caymans or somewhere.

Isn’t that how it works these days? And they call themselves patriots!


Whoever wrote that meme is either really stupid and lazy, or mischievous.
 
Whoever wrote that meme is either really stupid and lazy, or mischievous.
Stupid, lazy or mischievous, it appears to be on the money. The evidence is pretty much a matter of public record if you Google the question!



 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Stupid, lazy or mischievous, it appears to be on the money. The evidence is pretty much a matter of public record if you Google the question!




I suspect those tax arrangements were put in place while we were still members of the EU, which rather shoots the Brexit conspiracy fox. Let us not forget either that the Guardian Media Group has a similar fondness for tax dodging in the Cayman Islands too.

 
The government call themselves a Communist Party, but that has nothing to do with how the economy actually works.

China have stopped following the model of the Soviet Union and instead are following the models of Japan and South Korea.

Probably the USSR going down the tubes opened up a debate about how the Chinese avoid that happening. The economy is very much operated as a competitive market but that’s where it suits the Chinese to do so.

The Country is still rigidly controlled by the CP. They either allow it to happen or don’t allow it to happen. Their decision is the end of any debate on the matter. If there is any sign of public dissent, then the Chinese police will quickly step in and of course, the PLA will always oblige the communist government if it needs to put tanks and armed troops on the ground to ensure public compliance.

They also direct much of their foreign activity into things that benefit them militarily or give them a major political advantage. And of course having probably trillions in the bank also buys them a lot of what gives them advantages especially in the poorer parts of the world.

They aren’t reticent though in trying to build up advantages of any kind they like the look of in places like the UK. 5G network anybody?

So they call themselves communists because that’s exactly what they are. Authoritarian and quite ruthless in implementing their methods to run the country. Japan and South Korea have free open market economies. The Chinese economy is still very much state controlled with free market activities invited in where it suits them.
 
I suspect those tax arrangements were put in place while we were still members of the EU, which rather shoots the Brexit conspiracy fox. Let us not forget either that the Guardian Media Group has a similar fondness for tax dodging in the Cayman Islands too.


I won’t subscribe to the Guardian for that precise reason but pre or post Brexit, people like Rees Mogg are making tons on money without paying UK taxes on significant amounts of their income.

Taxes that among other things contribute to the defence of this country and thus the freedoms that we enjoy.

And they have the cheek to call people living in poverty living on benefits free loaders!

Patriots my backside!
 
The West sending all of its manufacturing to the PRC has done the impossible. . . It finally made communism economically viable.

I've said this before, but the sort of people in our political and management class, the PPE and Classics and MBA types, fundamentally don't comprehend that manufacturing is in itself a technology. A factory that makes cars (for example) is far, far more sophisticated than the cars it makes, if viewed as a single car-making system. That is what we handed over all the while the morons in charge chuckling that the really important part, the brand, stayed under Western control. An absolute farce and it shows no signs of stopping.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Probably the USSR going down the tubes opened up a debate about how the Chinese avoid that happening. The economy is very much operated as a competitive market but that’s where it suits the Chinese to do so.

The Country is still rigidly controlled by the CP. They either allow it to happen or don’t allow it to happen. Their decision is the end of any debate on the matter. If there is any sign of public dissent, then the Chinese police will quickly step in and of course, the PLA will always oblige the communist government if it needs to put tanks and armed troops on the ground to ensure public compliance.

They also direct much of their foreign activity into things that benefit them militarily or give them a major political advantage. And of course having probably trillions in the bank also buys them a lot of what gives them advantages especially in the poorer parts of the world.

They aren’t reticent though in trying to build up advantages of any kind they like the look of in places like the UK. 5G network anybody?

So they call themselves communists because that’s exactly what they are. Authoritarian and quite ruthless in implementing their methods to run the country. Japan and South Korea have free open market economies. The Chinese economy is still very much state controlled with free market activities invited in where it suits them.

I don't agree with your assessment of China as Communist.

The first great schism of Socialism was when Lenin and Mussolini parted company over the basis on which socialism could be established. Lenin argued for internationalism based on a shared class identity, Mussolini argued that it could only be achieved on the basis of a shared national identity.

Mussolini ha sempre ragione and internationalism has failed to gain traction wherever it's been tried. The USSR mutated from international Socialism to national Socialism and China has made the same journey. It is essentially fascist with the quirky relationship between the state and industry and commerce that Fascism generally creates. Unfortunately China has been more methodical about its commercial development than either Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany and is consequently, together with its size, far more formidable economically. Thanks to fanatical globalists and the dim-witted disciples of Fukuyama, it also received a massive boost from the voluntary offshoring of western manufacturing capability and considerable attendant investment.

As if this wasn't concerning enough, Hitler took one step further than Mussolini and conceived of Socialism being achieved on the basis of a shared racial identity, whereupon Fascism mutated into Nazism. It would not take much for Han nationalism in China to go down this path and the Chinese government has shown that it is comfortable with the concept of racial oppression and flirting with genocide, as the Tibetans and the Uighurs would attest.

In short, Western political and commercial shortcomings since the end of the Cold War, particularly those of the US and Germany, have created a monster.
 
I don't agree with your assessment of China as Communist.

The first great schism of Socialism was when Lenin and Mussolini parted company over the basis on which socialism could be established. Lenin argued for internationalism based on a shared class identity, Mussolini argued that it could only be achieved on the basis of a shared national identity.

Mussolini ha sempre ragione and internationalism has failed to gain traction wherever it's been tried. The USSR mutated from international Socialism to national Socialism and China has made the same journey. It is essentially fascist with the quirky relationship between the state and industry and commerce that Fascism generally creates. Unfortunately China has been more methodical about its commercial development than either Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany and is consequently, together with its size, far more formidable economically. Thanks to fanatical globalists and the dim-witted disciples of Fukuyama, it also received a massive boost from the voluntary offshoring of western manufacturing capability and considerable attendant investment.

As if this wasn't concerning enough, Hitler took one step further than Mussolini and conceived of Socialism being achieved on the basis of a shared racial identity, whereupon Fascism mutated into Nazism. It would not take much for Han nationalism in China to go down this path and the Chinese government has shown that it is comfortable with the concept of racial oppression and flirting with genocide, as the Tibetans and the Uighurs would attest.

In short, Western political and commercial shortcomings since the end of the Cold War, particularly those of the US and Germany, have created a monster.
China is an authoritarian single party state and the regime brooks no individual freedom for it’s citizens other than what it thinks it should. The CP has layers that they will call a democratic process but the reality is that in the main, they rubber stamp decrees handed down from the politburo. In itself a national governing body that I understand is very much dominated by the sitting President. Xi Jinping.

I’d actually describe it currently as a communist state with a Stalinist flavour because of the sitting Presidents penchant for personally dictating national and indeed international policy.

I view communism as just a form of fascism pretending to be in the peoples interests when in fact, it’s more like a dictatorship directing it’s citizens what to do with the threat of severe penalties for those who don’t comply.

What happens in China only happens because the communists under Xi Jinping allow it to happen.

I do think they took notice of the downfall of the Russian communists and have responded by changing their system to one that takes advantage of the capitalist world.

It‘s also allowed them to become much more adventurous outside their own borders and they are taking maximum advantage of that.

China is a threat to democracy and the freedoms that we enjoy. I think that’s indisputable!
 
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BBC - How the West invited China to eats its lunch

The promise, suggested by the likes of former US President Bill Clinton, was that "importing one of democracy's most cherished values, economic freedom", would enable the world's most populous nation to follow the path of political freedom too.

"When individuals have the power not just to dream, but to realise their dreams, they will demand a greater say," he said.

But that strategy failed. China began its ascent to its current status as the world's second biggest economy - and is on a seemingly inevitable path to becoming the world's biggest.

Indeed the US trade representative responsible for negotiating China's WTO deal, Charlene Barshefsky, told a Washington International Trade Association panel this week that China's economic model "somewhat disproved" the Western view that "you can't have an innovative society, and political control"
Karrimor an alleged proud British brane has most of its kit made in China
 
I won’t subscribe to the Guardian for that precise reason but pre or post Brexit, people like Rees Mogg are making tons on money without paying UK taxes on significant amounts of their income.

Taxes that among other things contribute to the defence of this country and thus the freedoms that we enjoy.

And they have the cheek to call people living in poverty living on benefits free loaders!

Patriots my backside!
So people who find legal loopholes to lessen their tax bill aren't patriots?
 
So people who find legal loopholes to lessen their tax bill aren't patriots?
Yep. Particularly when they consistently preach to the rest of us about the national interest!
 
Yep. Particularly when they consistently preach to the rest of us about the national interest!
In my eyes why pay more tax than required, nothing to wave your knob over or should get they get a t-shirt with it "I pay more tax than you!!!"

The amount directors pay goes up next year especially ref corporation tax I pointed in another thread.
 

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