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Battle of Britain 3

Humor me on this one.

Battle of Britain 1
As a child my old Dad would relate me with tales of his army service and how he was kicked out of France in 1940 with rest of the BEF. Old soldier 3 years service and his job seemed to have been driver for the one arm Major, QM, I will suggest.
Dad always said that if Hitler had been able to cross the Channel immediately after the BEF then He would have won the war, for their was Nothing on the mainland to resist him, just tired worn out troops with no new equipment.
This view was repeated to me in two books by Sir Jack Smyth V.C. who was a Brigade Commander in France and then back on mainland on anti invasion duties.
As an experienced leader he said that studies done at the time suggested that if Hitler could have come in May/June then it would have been very difficult to resist. Britain had nothing, but it was coming.
Now obviously he could not Come in that time frame but if he could have, then I will score
Germany 1 Britain 0.

Now the much more studied Battle of Britain 2, Sept/Oct 1940.
All most all I read suggests that if had launched his invasion then he would first have had to defeat the RAF, which he did not do. Then having got his Paras over he would have needed to send the bulk of his army over by sea and following a fight to the death I do believe, defeat was on his table. The RN would have risked all and saved the day, some fighting troops ashore but no logistical back up.
Germany 0 Britain 1.

The Battle of Britain 3, that never happened.
Mid 1941/42. British Commanders where screaming out for reinforcements. Mid East, Far East for it was known that the Japanese war was coming.
In mid 30’s the Director of Military Intelligence, John Dill had sent a promising Staff Officer, Col Arthur Percival out as Brigadier General Staff to Singapore to report on what was now considered to be the new, Threat by land, an invasion of Malaya and Singapore now considered practical due to improved roads/bridges.
Percival advised 5 Divisions and 2 Armored (Tank) Regts and 350 modern (Monoplane) aircraft for the second in line force (RAF) defending Singapore Naval Dock Yard.
The Royal Navy remained the primary defence force, and when the already identified enemy Japan, launch it’s invasion force, the British Home Fleet would sail via the Mediterranean, collecting the Med Fleet and sailing via the Suez canal would save the day. The new 1st Class Dockyard having been built to repair the fleet following this encounter. It was the Dockyard not Singapore/Malaya that was the priority.
Now almost none of the Planned never happened.
The RN was fully occupied no fleet to spare, the RAF had no extra Modern aircraft to send and the Army Divisions had only 2 Brigades with No tanks to protect the Far East. Yet their where 27 Fully trained and equipped divisions in UK.
So WHY ?
Sir John Dill was now, Chief of the Imperial General Staff, and he was of the opinion that once Hitler had taken out Stalin late 41 or early 42. He would about turn and return to unfinished business The Invasion of Britain.
Strong Mechanized Forces would hold the line in Russia, (Paul Carrel’s, Hitler's War on Russia), protecting the vast Grain and Oil fields. Much of his army could be demobilized, leaving sufficient troops for the invasion.
Churchill wanted men for North Africa, Commanders wanted reinforcements for the East but Dill was adamant Hitler would invade and he was keeping his newly raised forces for Defence of UK. Eventually Dill was ‘Sacked’ by Winston and the more pliable Allan Brooke became CIGS.
So who would have won an invasion in 42 ?

john
So many variables.
 
Invasion in 1942? "Much of his army could be demobilized"? If Germany had met with success in Russia, I suspect that any redundant front-line troops would have been re-roled to support the logistic effort to maintain the "Strong Mechanised Forces... ...protecting the vast Grain and Oil fields."

Opting for Barbarossa meant that Britain would only fall as a result of siege, not invasion and even then only if Hitler had desisted from declaring war on the US.

That's my layman's view anyway.
 
In Paul Carrel’s, Hitler's War on Russia Vol 1, the author states that the German Plan, was that after taking Moscow which would Split the USSR into many separate sections, for all rail roads connected via Moscow. Russian forces would be broken up had things gone according to German Plans and destruction in detail would take place.
The author is far more knowledgeable then me so I must trust his opinion.
No disrespect but can we discus what I have called BB 3.

john
 
Dont forget that the British 8th Army inflicted the first defeat on the Germans, this was done done by a purely British and Commonwealth force and was prior to Stalingrad.

That would have made Hitler think twice.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Dont forget that the British 8th Army inflicted the first defeat on the Germans, this was done done by a purely British and Commonwealth force and was prior to Stalingrad.

That would have made Hitler think twice.

First defeat on the Germans? What about the Battle for Moscow 41/42?

As far as an invasion in '42 was concerned, without air and naval superiority it never had a hope, and Germany was nowhere near achieving that.

Also, D-Day, where the Allies did enjoy naval and air superiority, was the result of considerable combined ops experience, which included basic specialist vehicles for troop transport and supply - not just Hobart's funnies, not to mention the creation of two artificial ports and PLUTO. Germany had no way of replicating any of this. Further, the Germans would have had no way of replicating FORTITUDE, thus they would have made an opposed landing without the advantage of surprise or the British commanders holding back significant forces in anticipation of a second strike elsewhere.

The situation had not changed materially from when Jodl (I think) remarked that the Germany Army's proposals for crossing the Channel were much the same as those of Julius Caesar, shortly before Sealion was cancelled.

All in all, the result would have been a German Dieppe.
 
Yes I agree that the mastery of the air and channel would be the decisive factor of any invasion of Britain.
Sir John Dill as CIGS must have known this, for he was highly regarded within the army and many consider he should have been in command of BEF and not one of the Corps commanders. Just why he would not release trained divisions for urgent overseas tasks will remain a mystery. When I said 'sacked' he was promoted and sent to the States as Britain's representative where due to ill health he passed away and became the first furriner (US Spelling) to be buried in what had been Robert E Lee's front garden.
So I will score it Britain 1 Germany 0.

john
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Yes I agree that the mastery of the air and channel would be the decisive factor of any invasion of Britain.
Sir John Dill as CIGS must have known this, for he was highly regarded within the army and many consider he should have been in command of BEF and not one of the Corps commanders. Just why he would not release trained divisions for urgent overseas tasks will remain a mystery. When I said 'sacked' he was promoted and sent to the States as Britain's representative where due to ill health he passed away and became the first furriner (US Spelling) to be buried in what had been Robert E Lee's front garden.
So I will score it Britain 1 Germany 0.

john

I think the answer to that is that Dill knew his Churchill. He knew he had to build up a UK force for the invasion and he didn't want that force frittered away in support of Churchill's latest big idea - such as the Greek intervention, which probably added two years to the North African Campaign, the redeployment to India the following year which almost cost us Egypt and the disastrous Dodecanese Campaign of 1943 which gained nothing at all.

Probably part of the reason the Americans thought so highly of him was that he was so focused on returning to France and supported their position entirely.
 
Yes I agree that the mastery of the air and channel would be the decisive factor of any invasion of Britain.
Sir John Dill as CIGS must have known this, for he was highly regarded within the army and many consider he should have been in command of BEF and not one of the Corps commanders. Just why he would not release trained divisions for urgent overseas tasks will remain a mystery. When I said 'sacked' he was promoted and sent to the States as Britain's representative where due to ill health he passed away and became the first furriner (US Spelling) to be buried in what had been Robert E Lee's front garden.
So I will score it Britain 1 Germany 0.

john
Sorry, Dill was not the first Foreigner or British citizen buried in Arlington

for instance

Capt Angus Macintosh
Royal Horse Guards
Interred Oct. 13th, 1918

Maj Charles Henry Lyell
Royal Garrison Artillery
Interred Oct. 18th, 1918

Captain W F FITCH, MC
7th Bn., Suffolk Regiment
Interred Nov 1, 1918

Pte. James Schofield RMLI
HM Yacht Warrior
Interred Dec 23rd 1918

Lieut. Luigi Bartolucci Dundas
Italian Navy Attache
interred Apr.1, 1920

Arlington National Cemetery | Foreign Nationals
 

aghart

War Hero
UK win BOB 3. Remember the RAF had been built up, lots more fighters, no Spitfires went oversea's until Mid 1942. The army at home was huge and fighting on home soil.
 
Sorry, Dill was not the first Foreigner or British citizen buried in Arlington

for instance

Capt Angus Macintosh
Royal Horse Guards
Interred Oct. 13th, 1918

Maj Charles Henry Lyell
Royal Garrison Artillery
Interred Oct. 18th, 1918

Captain W F FITCH, MC
7th Bn., Suffolk Regiment
Interred Nov 1, 1918

Pte. James Schofield RMLI
HM Yacht Warrior
Interred Dec 23rd 1918

Lieut. Luigi Bartolucci Dundas
Italian Navy Attache
interred Apr.1, 1920

Arlington National Cemetery | Foreign Nationals
What's the score with them any idea how they were buired there?
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
What's the score with them any idea how they were buired there?

I'm guessing, but I expect it involved a couple of spades and some manual labour... ;)
 
What's the score with them any idea how they were buired there?
My understanding is UK personnel are/were buried in the country where they died until the Falklands war when the fallen were allowed repatriation back to the UK. It seems as these men died of influenza or natural causes. Some of the WWII burials were due to automobile accidents and air crashes.
 

Pteranadon

LE
Book Reviewer
In Paul Carrel’s, Hitler's War on Russia Vol 1, the author states that the German Plan, was that after taking Moscow which would Split the USSR into many separate sections, for all rail roads connected via Moscow. Russian forces would be broken up had things gone according to German Plans and destruction in detail would take place.
The author is far more knowledgeable then me so I must trust his opinion.
No disrespect but can we discus what I have called BB 3.

john

John,

There might well have been a Battle of Britain if the Germans had subdued the Russians. That was their plan.

"If"

I would not trust "Paul Carell" on WW2, any more than I would trust the views any other spin doctor.

Paul Karl Schmidt worked as the chief press spokesman for Nazi Germany's Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop. Schmidt was also responsible for the very well done German propaganda magazine 'Signal', which was published in several languages to tell the German side of the story in neutral and occupied countries during the war.
(Wikipedia)
 
Thank you Pteranadon for your valuable opinion.
As a young squaddie I bought both of the first two volumes of, Hitlers War on Russia, late 60's early 70's for edition two. The third volume was never published, but I would have been in BAOR by it's expected due date.
A couple of years ago I tried to buy old copies but silly prices where asked.
Strangely I can remember parts of what I read back then, yesterday and five mins ago are a mystery to me, getting old I will suggest.
Spin Doctors where not a known to factor to a young man back then and I do consider the books to be well written with extensive bibliography.
Still we live and learn.

john
 
So, Hitler achieves his objectives in Russia, taking Moscow and gaining the oilfields. This leaves him with 2000 miles of hostile border to guard. Let's say two coy strength units per mile - 2000 x 250 = 500,000 men.

He wants to transport the oil to Germany. Let's say two rail routes of 1000 miles each. A coy strength unit guarding every 5 miles (which would work out as 10 blokes patrolling that length of line at any one time) - 2 x 200 x 120 = 48,000 men.

A million prisoners. Put them to work bringing the farmlands back to use. Oversee at the rate of 1 soldier to 10 prisoners (effectively 1 soldier to 30 prisoners given that they need to be supervised 24 hours/day) = 100,000 men.

Control of towns and cities. Say another 100,000 men (figure plucked from air)

So far we're at 750,000 troops and we've not started on the local logistics, guarding of their MSRs, artillery, tank units and so on. Add in home leave and an allowance for sickness. Realistically, even thinned down to silly levels, Germany would need to allocate 2 million troops to Russia in order to make use of the oilfields - and keep them there for the foreseeable future. That's an increase on the number of troops that it took to gain the place.

So, back to the point I made in my previous post, BoB3 couldn't happen (certainly not in 1942, maybe in 1962) because the invasion force wouldn't have enough men. I suspect that they'd be lucky to raise 20,000 men and even then, not in the time frame required for an early spring invasion. Leave it later and the Yanks start arriving.

Thus, not Britain 1 - Germany 0 but match postponed or cancelled.
 

lert

LE
The Wehrmacht would have struggled in 1940, by 1942 it had no chance unless the Battle of the Atlantic was lost...

This.

It is more than likely that the preconditions for a successful German invasion, ie a successful German blockade of the UK, would have rendered an oppposed invasion by land forces unnecessary. A starving population in a darkened country would likely have exposed Churchill's 'never surrender' rhetoric for exactly that. Added to which, without the flow of arms and equipment coming alongside the Spam and powdered eggs I'm not sure how long an armed resistance could have lasted.

The question of whether or not we would have continued the struggle from 'our territories and dominions overseas....until such time as the New World comes to the aid of the Old' is the subject for another debate I suspect....
 
My understanding is UK personnel are/were buried in the country where they died until the Falklands war when the fallen were allowed repatriation back to the UK. It seems as these men died of influenza or natural causes. Some of the WWII burials were due to automobile accidents and air crashes.

That I understand just seems odd given the timeline of the dates which would suggest flu were they taken off a troopship where were they going to/coming back from which interests me.

As for the repatriation my dads grandfather died of the flu in a POW camp in Germany in June 1918 and was interred in a local cemetery. He was then exhumed in 1921ish and reburied in a small commonwealth plot in a French cemetery near the border.
 

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