Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by GROWNUPS_BEWARE, Jan 13, 2006.

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  1. Excellent article here by Mark Steyn - apologies if you've seen it before. Makes some interesting points about the long term survival of the West. It plays to Huntingdon's 'Clash of Civilisations' thesis, but is nonetheless well thought through.

    Mr. Steyn is a syndicated columnist and theater critic for The New Criterion, in whose January issue this article appears.

    Edited for insane length and copyright issues. PTP
  2. Can you do a condensed version, I cant read that much in one day.
  3. Edited as previous suggestion followed up!
  4. Just ask yourself, what are we doing now to ensure Britain survives in 100 years time? I don't mean as an island but as a nation.
  5. It's a heavy read, and I don't want to get all fatalistic about it, but Buckminster Fuller has quite a bit to say on that very topic WH:

    Edit to add - I know I'm going off at a bit of a tangent from the opening post but clearly we are in a time of dramatic and irreversible change so I hope you will all agree it's worth looking at research from all quarters....

    If not G_B feel free to delete/move this one. Thanks.
  6. Looks like we need to find ourselves a Charles Martel.
  7. ^C'mon the Hammers - my we are a well educated lot on ARRSE these days :D

    I think Fuller would argue that we need to embrace multi-culturalism and make all the strands work together, not choose the strongest non-Western one and adopt it as the new-age equivalent of the Cold-War superpower stand-off. ( i.e. Delete East v West, insert Muslim v non-Muslim)

    Not that I'm trying to be PC about it - I'm an unreconstituted dinosaur and a good Church of Scotland boy who quite likes fighting for a just cause. Just thought I'd play Devil's Advocate seeing as I can't get out to whack the Barbarians at the Gates yet :D
  8. Excellent post!
  9. If you hug someone who really doesn't like you, it'll just make it easier for him to put the knife in your back.
  10. Very interesting article, with some very valid points.

    However, such predictions frequently fail to allow for the possibility of adaptation. Ultimately, if a way of life is genuinely threatened, it's proponents will defend it. For all its failings, too much has been sacrificed by Western society in securing the liberal-democratic ideal for it to just let it drift away. I suppose the real concern is that by the time the clarion is sounded, a defence might be too late to be effective.

    I would be interested to see a little more research into the effectiveness of islamic integration into Western societies. Although Mr Steyn portrays the spread of islamic people as something of a global conspiracy, I am sure that the vast majority of the relevant individuals and families move to the West for jobs and better living conditions, the very product of liberal economics, which goes hand in hand with societal freedom and respect for the individual. I am not so sure that this would fail to have an effect on immigrants. I think this point could especially be developed by separating genuine immigrants from (for example) British muslims. I wonder whether the survey on 'sharia law -v- domestic' would give the same result if it was carried out by 3rd generation London-Iranians. If liberal democracy and its comforts have had a softening effect on christian fervour, I am confident that, given time, the same effects will be seen on immigrant islam. It is the human condition to choose the path of least resistance, and it doesn't come easier than Western society.
  11. Know I remember why I dislike cut and paste. What an artical, pity the poster could not have put in in far fewer words, there by giving the majority of Board members a chance.
    So we don't breed enough. Fair comment.
    The Arab cuntries certainly seem to be breeding like rabbits, I learned that during my time in Oman.
    OK lets get racist
    The Yanks used to complain how Colour folk bred like rabbits. I don't think they do now.
    If you read Sir Ran Finnes Book 'Where Soldiers fear to Tread' in one section he makes the comment that in the 1960's in Oman 9 out of 10 children died within 10 months of being conceieved. They either died in the womb or within a month of being born. Modern medical methods have taken car of that problem and so the Arab states have massive problems with the growth in population who are now looking for employment.
    Employment to an Arab means an office job with telephones and computers and NINJAs from India doing the labouring.
    So big problems for Arab rulers.
    I will say NO Arab Woman in 1960 had heard of contraception let alone practiced it. (Forget Lebbanon) But Now, Bet you it's changed.
    Education reduces the size of families, Education is not a problem in many Arab Muslim cuntries, In most cases.
    I ahve always said that women get the Vote in bed. Women have their ways of talking men round, Eve know that all thoes years ago.
    The Muslim world is hundreds of years behind the west but it is catching up fast and breeding it's own problems.
    Far too long a post Brain hurts.
  12. Islam does not integrate, no more than a virus integrates, it infiltrates, it spreads and then it kills the host and moves on to the next site of infection. Like HIV it destroys the bodies ability to defend itself. Political Correctness is the mechanism.
  13. What rubbish Herrenbloke - Certainly extreme versions of Islam behave as you describe (as with extreme versions of most things) but mild forms of Islam are not incompatible the Western way of life.

    As for the article I have to admit I didn't read it all the way to the end. As often happens with Steyn's articles (or Herrenbloke's posts) I find small twists of the truth which make me question the validity of his entire argument. I have to admit they are clever twists though as its often difficult to define exactly where his logic has gone astray (although if you want an example of Herrenbloke's posts getting demolished point by point then read the WWI shot-at-dawn posts in the bullying thread).

    From Steyn's article:
    I wonder why Steyn chose to quote fertility rates instead of population growth rates? Fertility rates don't take account of high mortality rates in these countries. I accept these countries are growing relative to Western world but he has exagerated it. Also, as a country develops it is quite normal for death rates to fall while birth rates remain high - hence the population boom. But the birth rate falls within a couple of years.

    So why didn't he do a little bit of maths to come up with a figure for 2020? I think the reason is that the growth of the Muslim world relaitve to the developed world is slowing. I reckon he did do the maths and came up with a not very dramtic figure so decided to leave it at a question mark.

    1/10 marks for Steyn on this occasion... His twists, misrepresentation and faulty logic make me question the entire article...

  14. Well as we in the developed world are spending a huge amount of time and money to reduce the mortality rate in each of those countries, with great success in some, it could be said that we are shooting ourselves in the foot?

    The majority of research that I can find on this subject all support his view.

    Time to paint some crossed keys on the Panzers? 8O
  15. Tricam wrote:

    but mild forms of Islam are not incompatible the Western way of life.

    Mild forms of Islam have the same aims, it is just a more subtle means.