BAOR Armoured Car/Armoured Recce Regiment pre CVR(T) - Help with ToE please

Discussion in 'RAC' started by Rothy, Apr 27, 2012.

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  1. I am working to establish the ToE for regiments with BAOR in the late 1960s/early 1970s. One I am struggling with is that of an armoured reconnaissance regiment. This is pre CVR(T) and when recce were equipped with Saladin, Saracen and Ferrets.

    I have questions around the full ToE for a regiment in BAOR in this period, I wonder if you can help, please?

    - were there 4 armd car troops per squadron or 5?
    - was there a support troop with each squadron (with maybe 1 Ferret Mk2 and 5 Saracen APCs)?
    - how many Saracen APCs in a squadron HQ (1 or 2)?
    - what vehicles were assigned to the air squadron (1 X Saracen, 2 3/4t FFR, 2 4t trucks)?
    - any details of numbers and types of A and B vehicles overall.

    I have been helped by the Tank Museum however they have gaps in their records and you may be able to help fill them. There also seems to be some confusion (at least on my part) between an armd recce regiment in BAOR and that in the UK, the UK regiments having a different ToE.

    The regiments in question at this time appear to be:

    5th RDG (from Jan 68 till May 71)
    3rd RTR (from Dec 69 till Nov 71)
    Royal Scots (from Jun 71 till Oct 72)
    14/20 Hussars (Oct 72 till Mar 76)
    17/21 Lancers (Nov 71 till Oct 74)

    Any help will be greatly appreciated.
  2. It's some time ago but from memory:

    There were only 3 Arnd Recce Regts in BAOR circa 1970. Two in the Covering Force role - withdrawal from IGB to main 1(BR)Corps defensive positions. And 1 in the nuclear escort/rear area security role.

    In early 1970 I think the Covering Force Regts were Skins (Herford) and 3RTR (Wolfenbuttel) and the nuclear escort regt was 3rd Carabiniers (Munster).

    For the Covering Force Regts there were seven troops in each of 3 sqns plus a HQ Sqn and Air Sqn (six Sioux).

    SHQ/Admin - 2x Saracen ACV, 1x Saracen ambulance, 1x FSC Mk1, 2x LRs, 1x Bedford 4 ton
    5 x "sabre" troops - 2x Saladin, 1x Ferret Mk 2, !x Vigilant Ferret Mk2
    1 x Support Troop - 2xSaracen APC (I think)
    Fitters Troop - Scammell, can't remember the rest.

    Open to corrections - I'm really old!
  3. That's a great help thanks. We're none of us getting any younger .........
  4. Did not each Sqn have an Assault Troop equipped with Saracen?
  5. I think so but am looking for confirmation. One version of the ToE I have from an RAC Training Manual (1971) has each Squadron with a 'Support' Troop of 1 X Ferret 2 and 5 Saracen.
  6. AlienFTM

    AlienFTM LE Book Reviewer

    If by ToE you mean Orbat (Order of Battle), the confusion is all on your part.

    There were separate orbats for RAC recce (and prior to that, armoured car) regiments for UKLF and BAOR.

    And the NI Armoured Car Regiment (subsequently the NI Armd Recce Regt) had its own bespoke orbat.

    Very much a moving target in the 1970s.

    And don't trust history books. I recently reviewed a history of the Light Dragoons. Its author stated as fact an orbat for an Armd Recce Troop in the 1970s which (and I have verified as widely as I can through colleagues who served before and after me) simply never existed (though it was announced in 1976 only to be superseded in 1977 without ever being put into service).
  7. Yep - thanks. I would be grateful for any details of the orbats you mention, to compare with what I have already.
  8. AlienFTM

    AlienFTM LE Book Reviewer

    Afraid as far as pre-CVR(T) goes as per your original request, I got three months in the NI Armoured Car Regt in Omagh. We had a couple of 3/4ton FFR Land Rovers, a couple of Ferrets and I think hidden at the back of the hangar was a Saracen but don't quote me - I only did three months and I did as I was told.
  9. 1 RTR were the Northern Ireland Armoured Car Regiment 1973/74. We had 3 sabre Sqns. Each Sqn had 4 troops each of 4 x FSC mk2 and a 5th troop with 2x FSC and 2 x Saladin. Then there was Assault Troop with 2 x FSC and 5 x Saracen APC.
    • Like Like x 1
  10. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    "In early 1970 I think the Covering Force Regts were Skins (Herford) and 3RTR (Wolfenbuttel) and the nuclear escort regt was 3rd Carabiniers (Munster)."
    they were picked to escort the nukes for their amazing climbing skills!

    I'll get me coat!
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Thanks again
  12. Thank you every one. Anyone else out there who served in BAOR in armoured recce 1969-1973?