Balistics and sandbags

#1
Rather drunken debate last night about the protection offered by sandbags.

I maintained that sandbags offered better protection than armour plate.

Am I correct and can anybody point me in the direction of evidence to back my claim?
 
M

Mark The Convict

Guest
#3
Protection? Condoms, they don't chafe as much.

Edit; because this isn't the NB;

Protection from what/how many rounds of/at what range?

What thickness of bags/plate?

What type of plate?

The Panzer Pope knows the answers.
 
#4
Protection? Condoms, they don't chafe as much.

Edit; because this isn't the NB;

Protection from what/how many rounds of/at what range?

What thickness of bags/plate?

What type of plate?

The Panzer Pope knows the answers.
You forgot angle of attack...just sayin'
 
#5
5.56mm goes through sandbags, so my money is on Armour plate being better than sand. Granted you don't ricochet off sand as much as plate.
 
#9
It's a cock. I'm told it is appropriate.

And it was a very brave goose and a Beer Waggon.
 
Z

Zarathustra

Guest
#10
I suppose any defenceless animal that hangs around Coldstreamers must be very brave.


Sandbags must be pretty good at stopping rounds or the wouldn't be used for building up defensive positions or for the grenade pits on the range.

However, if I had the choice between one armoured plate or 5 sandbags for the same level of protection, I know which I'd choose.
 
#12
Electronic Battle Book is your friend if you are at work. Field engineering pamphlet 20, table 3-1 gives the required thickness of sandbag construction vs 7.62mm but the document is restricted.

As for sandbags being better than armour plate? Try sticking a sandbag down the front of your Osprey and see how you get on. 'Orses for courses, innit?
 
#13
Surely it's just a question of how much sand vs how much armour plate?

For given weight and thickness; armour, for cost and ease of creation; sand.

Hence why armoured vehicles and infantry tend to have armour plate, and improvised defences tend to use sand.
 
#14
No, no, no..........you don't need spensive armour or heavy sandbags, what you need is water. Fill up lots of carrier bags with water and build a defensive position with them, or hang a few around yourself for personal protection then you could also take a drink whilst on patrol......mind, that would deplete the armour a tad.

The source of this wisdom comes from Mythbusters. Did anyone see the episode where they were shooting at ballistic gel thru water tanks and in swimming pools? 5.56 disintegrates upon impact as does .50cal.

Annotated Mythbusters: Episode 34: Bulletproof Water, 360 Swing

They switched to a .223 rifle, which shoots at 2500 ft/s

•.223 rifle @ 10 ft: the full metal jacket bullet shattered into tiny bits upon hitting the water -- nonfatal
•223 rifle@ 3 ft: once again the bullet broke up. The tip of the bullet was resting on the ballistics gel -- nonfatal (myth confirmed)
The next gun up was the M1, which shoots at 2800 ft/s. In their Bulletproof Glass mythbusting, the M1 was capable of penetrating 2.5" of bulletproof glass.

•M1@ 10 ft: tiny bullet fragments once again
•M1@ 2 ft: the bullet only pierced the gel 4", which would be enough to just pierce the skin.
They finally broke out the big gun, the .50 cal with armor-piercing rounds, which are shot at 3000 ft/s.

Adam: "Hopefully we'll be gone before the pool fully drains"

•.50 cal @ 10 ft: even though the water exploded, the ballistics gel was intact. Water made it all the way up to the ceiling. As it was with the previous guns, the bullet round came apart on impact. It lost all of it's energy within the first 3 ft. You would be safe 14" underwater at a 23 angle from a .50 cal.
Watch the vid:

YouTube - ‪Mythbusters Shooting 50 Caliber Sniper into Water‬‏

Its just like an IED disputor in reverse; instead of shooting the water at the object the object is shot at the water.

Purely for research purposes, telephone directories are not bulletproof:

YouTube - ‪Mythbuster - Phone Book Armor‬‏
 
#15
On the other hand, you don't have to worry so much about secondary fragmentation from a sandbag.

There's an account somewhere of German snipers being taken out by secondary frag of their steel plate shields by the simple expedient of reversing the bullet in .303 rounds or something like that.

Moving up a scale, what's the effect of HESH on sandbags?
 
#16
No, no, no..........you don't need spensive armour or heavy sandbags, what you need is water. Fill up lots of carrier bags with water and build a defensive position with them, or hang a few around yourself for personal protection then you could also take a drink whilst on patrol......mind, that would deplete the armour a tad.
Water filled bags are very good at stopping a bullet... once.


The problem comes after the first bullet, when it turns out that it's no longer a water-filled bag.
 

Schaden

LE
Book Reviewer
#17
Moving on from sandbags - just had someone from another BBS frequent that during Korea his dad had been a machine gunner and had killed so many gooks that they formed a wall of human sandbags behind which he could shelter and therefore was not killed by incoming fire - he then had to break down the wall of gooks so as to shoot more gooks with his machine gun.

Everyone got upset when I told him that either he or his dad were telling fibs.
 
#18
At 50 meters, the 7.62mm ball round cannot reliably penetrate a single layer of well-packed sandbags. It can penetrate a single sandbag layer at 200 meters, but not a double layer. The armor-piercing round does only slightly better against sandbags. It cannot penetrate a double layer but can penetrate up to 10 inches at 600 meters.

The penetration of the 7.62mm round is best at 600 meters. Most urban targets are closer. The longest effective range is usually 200 meters or less.

Penetration capabilities of a single 7.62mm (ball) round.
Range Pine Board Dry Loose Sand Cinder Block Concrete
82 ft (25 m) 13 in (330 mm) 5 in (127 mm) 8 in (203 mm) 2 in (51 mm)
328 ft (100 m) 18 in (457 mm) 4.5 in (114 mm) 10 in (254 mm) 2 in (51 mm)
656 ft (200 m) 41 in (1,041 mm) 7 in (178 mm) 8 in (203 mm) 2 in (51 mm)
From 7.62mm (7.62 x 51 mm) Ammunition

I know from experience that 303 will smash double thickness brick walls to bits at 110m if that helps at all.

Back in the day when we were instructed on things like field defences, how to dig a fox hole, shell scrape etc. I recall being shown that one layer of sandbags was insuffecient and that two should always be used.

In reference to armour plate it should never be confused with ordinary mild steel plate. As an indication 303 (again - sorry) will punch a hole about half an inch in diameter in 6mm mild steel plate at 100m. Of course most of the round is fragmented or vapourised in doing so but I still wouldn't like to be behind it. I have the plate. :)
 
#19
In the Old Fella's Home Guard days, they received instruction in putting up two parallel washing lines (don't know how far apart, but i'd guess at a couple of feet) and draping damp blankets over them. According to the instructor, this was proof against .303 and shell splinters. If true, this this would be more time- and cost-efficient than Hesco.
 
#20
No, no, no..........you don't need spensive armour or heavy sandbags, what you need is water. Fill up lots of carrier bags with water and build a defensive position with them, or hang a few around yourself for personal protection then you could also take a drink whilst on patrol......mind, that would deplete the armour a tad.

The source of this wisdom comes from Mythbusters. Did anyone see the episode where they were shooting at ballistic gel thru water tanks and in swimming pools? 5.56 disintegrates upon impact as does .50cal.

Annotated Mythbusters: Episode 34: Bulletproof Water, 360 Swing



Watch the vid:

YouTube - ‪Mythbusters Shooting 50 Caliber Sniper into Water‬‏

Its just like an IED disputor in reverse; instead of shooting the water at the object the object is shot at the water.

Purely for research purposes, telephone directories are not bulletproof:

YouTube - ‪Mythbuster - Phone Book Armor‬‏
At muzzle velocity rounds fragment on impact. Get a bit further off where they have slowed down a bit and they penetrate better. Would have been interesting to see effects at 200, 400, 600m.
 

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