BAe Investigated Again

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Sven, Jan 15, 2007.

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  1. Has BAe also bribed the South Africans

    . . . . . . . and if they had, where elsse have they had dodgy dealings? Bowman, SA80 mk1? Can we trust this company to win tenders on the basis of the quality of their products, rather than the wodge they give out to corrupt politicians.

    Since many posters are convinced of corruption in this government - could this extend to the MoD and are soldiers subsequently suffering?
  2. Not so much investigated again but simply the ongoing investigation which survived the government's expedient intervention to end the Saudi aspect. As far as I am aware the SFO is continuing to and has been investigating for the past two years BAe's activities in South Africa, Tanzania, Chile, Romania & the Czech Republic. Clearly the Attorney General thinks there is a reasonable chance of a prosecution relating to these areas otherwise he would have halted the investigation along with the Saudi one...
  3. What you never see on TV during political party confernces are the huge" exhibition" areas set aside for Fortune and FTSE 100 companies and Lobbyists.

    In a security capacity, I visited 4 conferneces whilst on duty. The size and number of these hospitality stands took my breath away. I could not see, why with so many apparent checks and balances in place, all these businesses were forking out for these stands?

    In other parts of the world, BAe may be parting with similar amounts of money to achieve a similar effect. Now I have been in industry a while I understand a bit more about Westminster and how pro-constituency, or pro-government messages from the industry side quickly find their way into Whitehall procurement teams. Who gets the best message over wins.

    Who are we in UKto judge people living 3,000 or even 5,000 miles away by our values and standards? I know of one country where the ruler keeps a book of countries he wants to do business with. Each country gets a turn in strict rotation. That is his rule, and to be honest, it may be more equitable that some in the West.

    The French, for instance, place national interest above all else, the security of their economy and jobs is regarded as part of their national security. Not only do the French play by their rules, they play by the local guy's rules as well.

    I am against big bungs for fat-cat investors, but I am also for local jobs for local British people.

    There are a number of ways you can tell how a country looks after its population:
    UK has 40 hospital beds per 10,000 head of population
    US A larger nuclear power, 33 per 10,000
    Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan , Serbia and Montenegro 53, 62 and 60.
    France 76
    Germany 86

    Our NHS is that bad we are sending patients over to France all the time for operations. The French and the US now own a large slice of our Defence industry.

    So tell me this: On a global scale, who has got their moral position right here??
  4. Your numbers may be right, however do you think the quality is the same? Is a Patient in Tadjikistan going to recieve the same quality and advanced care as in the UK?

    I'm not saying your wrong, I just get pi$$ed off when people play the numbers game without any balance!

    As for hospitality, to me its a necessary part of business, but within boundries. If a new customer comes to visit, I expect to show them round what we do, go to lunch and foot the bill (our canteen isn't that great anyway) however I wouldn't be giving them a new car or holidays or stuff like that!

    Hospitality stands are more of an advertising feature, rather than "bribary and corruption" (IMHO)! Anybody who would buy a product (especially when your talking the amount of money in a defence contract) becuase they got a key ring or a free lunch really should be in for an interview with their boss!

  5. From my intimate experience of the process of UK and overseas procurement of British manufactured or prime-contracted equipment, the chances of British soldiers getting gash equipment is high. This is not due to corruption but rather due to the level and scope of incompetence in the DPA and across the divide into industry.

    I have had to stand by and watch as procurements have gone ahead in the 1..2..3.. sequence, when anybody with half a brain could see that the ultimate solution was going to be in the words of the old 4X beer commercial "real bad".

    So while we would all agree that there is a need for openness, probity and good governance, watch out, watch out, embarrassed officials will fall when hit!
  6. Certainly Civil Servants may even baulk at lunch given recent DINs regarding gifts and hospitality. Should I read an implication that MPs are also so rigorous regarding refusal of hospitality... and that there are no serial offenders?

    It was not lost on me that probaly the most expensive ( and over-rated) curry house in the country is a mere spit away from St Stephen's tower.
    Corporate hospitality can go a lot further than a £50 per head curry, ask certain Honourable Members about overseas holidays
  7. Subsonic

    Is this alleged corruption only happening in countries 3,000 or even 5,000 miles away - could this possibly explain the strangeness of buying Bownman or SA80

    Isn't QinetiQ partly owned by BAe, didn't BAe get to purchase Royal Enfield?
  8. Qinetiq is not partly owned by BAe. It is owned by the Carlyle Group.

    BAe purchased the Royal Ordnance Facories, which included the RSAF Enfield and its larger, sister factory Nottingham. motorbikes were not a feature of either plant's product line at that time Sven.
  9. And I thought the Carlyle Group was a partnership, of which BAe was one of the partners.

    You are quite right aboout the Royal Ordnance - there was a factory at Leeds which did something with tanks.

    I am suitably embarrassed
  10. cpunk

    cpunk LE Moderator

    There was nothing particularly mysterious about the decisions to buy either: there was a perceived need to find a 'British' solution to meet both requirements. The real issue in these cases is in the way that the projects were specified and managed.
  11. Sven
    There were something like 18 factories in the ROF group as sold to BAe. Most were in the world of explosive ordnace but three were into weapons and vehicles (Nottingham, Enfield and Leeds). The group looks pretty different now!

    As for Carlyle Group;
    The Carlyle Group is a Washington, D.C. based global private equity investment firm with more than $46.9 billion of equity capital under management.[1] The firm operates four fund families, focusing on leveraged buyouts, venture & growth capital, real estate and leveraged finance investments. The firm employs more than 395 investment professionals in 16 countries with several offices in North America, Europe and Asia; its portfolio companies employ 200,000 people worldwide. The academic qualifications of its staff include 160 MBAs, 28 JDs and 14 Ph.D/MDs from many of the world’s most prestigious universities. Carlyle has over 1000 investors in 57 countries.

    (source: Wikipedia)