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Backlash over fuel aid: is British democracy failing?

#1
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/09/05/bcnbrown104.xml

Fabian Hamilton, a Labour backbencher, said "the consequences for Gordon Brown and the Government could be very serious indeed" if they failed to act swiftly to give people substantial help.

"They could further lose support from those people who look to the government for the help that they need right now," he added
Is the democratic process in Britain fatally compromised when there is a critcal mass who benefit from the state whose vote can be bought by the party that promises them the most, whilst the net contribrutors are marginalised?
 
#3
sanchauk said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/09/05/bcnbrown104.xml

Fabian Hamilton, a Labour backbencher, said "the consequences for Gordon Brown and the Government could be very serious indeed" if they failed to act swiftly to give people substantial help.

"They could further lose support from those people who look to the government for the help that they need right now," he added
Is the democratic process in Britain fatally compromised when there is a critcal mass who benefit from the state whose vote can be bought by the party that promises them the most, whilst the net contribrutors are marginalised?
Yes.
 
#4
An interesting point. Since the creation of New Labour politics has changed hugely. Thatcher killed off conventional socialism and the party had to change. What we got was a party that bases its' policies on what is/ will be popular, rather than the old fashioned 'this is what we stand for, vote for who you choose' approach.
Inevitably the govt seeks to ensure loyalty from certain sectors (parents, young poeple, low incomes) Those that contribute may be in these sectors but will be better positioned to look after themselves.
I dont think that it comproises democracy, ultimately it IS democracy.

Edited to add afterthought. ref fuel etc, I have heard several people moaning in the last few months about how tough it is going to be etc, and how much profit the energy companies make, and most of the moaners are well- off enough to be able to afford to buy shares thereby being paid dividends.
 
#5
Alexander Tytler said:
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.
Smart lads, these Jocks. :wink:
 
#6
smartascarrots said:
Alexander Tytler said:
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.
Smart lads, these Jocks. :wink:
Great quote! So if that's what history tells us, how can we defend it? Is it possible to step back as it were? I'm not so keen on living in a dictatorship.
 
#7
Socialism didnt die under Thatcher, it was heavily disguised and became Blairism, what you are now seeing is our economy is uncompetitive with other economies and our industrial base is now compromised.

Under New Labour the number of people who rely on the government for handouts has increased dramatically, its pure jerrymandering.

What good is the tax credit scheme, when you pay the tax in the first place and have to claim it back? Would it not be better to reduce taxes in the first place for those on lower incomes? This fuel aid scheme is another version of the purchase of votes!

Nu Labours answer to the lower paid was the abolition of the 10Pence tax rate, resulting in a panic measure which still leaves 1.5 million worse off, but everyone else better off. Brown has presided over his own demise!

What is an affront to democracy is when a manifesto commitment for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty is denied to the country. Brown is simply a control freak and knows that a vote for the treaty would have been NO.

Unfortunately I think democracy in this country has been badly damaged, with unelected officials running various quango's that impact our daily lives. These unelected officials are usually friends of friends in politics.
 
#8
bobthedog said:
Socialism didnt die under Thatcher, it was heavily disguised and became Blairism, what you are now seeing is our economy is uncompetitive with other economies and our industrial base is now compromised.
Under New Labour the number of people who rely on the government for handouts has increased dramatically, its pure jerrymandering.

What good is the tax credit scheme, when you pay the tax in the first place and have to claim it back? Would it not be better to reduce taxes in the first place for those on lower incomes? This fuel aid scheme is another version of the purchase of votes!

Nu Labours answer to the lower paid was the abolition of the 10Pence tax rate, resulting in a panic measure which still leaves 1.5 million worse off, but everyone else better off. Brown has presided over his own demise!

What is an affront to democracy is when a manifesto commitment for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty is denied to the country. Brown is simply a control freak and knows that a vote for the treaty would have been NO.

Unfortunately I think democracy in this country has been badly damaged, with unelected officials running various quango's that impact our daily lives. These unelected officials are usually friends of friends in politics.
The more I think about it it the more I blame the dependency culture we see now on Maggie. She used N. Sea oil funds to cushion the unemployment consequences of moving to a globalised economy. I'm not sure that that was socialism per se.
 
#9
One of the weakest links in our democracy is that we have no mechanism to force a general election if the governing party doesn't want one.

A petition of ten million (?) signatures collected nationally, suitably audited, should be enough to force an election. Failing that, a similar level of concern (30,000 signatures per constituency?) expressed at local level should be enough to force a by-election.

It seems clear that very few people want Labour to win the next election, and no-one expects them to, and yet here we are with no chance to vote them out for another 2 years. It's madness.

We might be getting some good news next June, though.
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2008/09/the-day-gordon.html
 
#10
There is no democracy in this country, our MP's are merely a rubber stamp for the diktats from Brussels.

We are alreay in bondage but most people are too blinded by their own complacency to realise the truth that is staring them in the face.

I would like to point out the fact that i was Thatchers privatisation of the utilities that has lead to the current fuel price situation.

Tories / Labour / Lib Dems... b*stards every one of them.
 
#11
The dependency culture drives me nuts…. Why should unemployed fat bints get cheep housing and money given to them to feed their fat faces all day, then be able to drop sprogs so that they can claim more money from the state…..???? GRRRRRR

3 months help with unemployment benefit and if you don’t find work after that you should get nothing. Sh1t – bust.

I would have no problem with the top brass making a move to replace the chinless wonder, under reasons for treason of course, then a little time of sorting out dole louts, smack heads, gun/knife crime etc and then have an election, No problem at all. Bit simplistic, but something needs to happen.
After all, we now have a world health service which is struggling no matter how much money is pumped into it, (not that the influx of foreigners is putting any sort of strain on it.) A welfare service which allows Polish families to claim for children back home etc. And (yes I know not to start a sentence with and, but hey ho, am on a roll…) an education system which is not getting any better even though funding has gone through the roof, ( again, nothing at all to do with the amount of foreigners with their kids…)
Sorry for the rant.
 
#12
I dont believe that the privatisation of what were perfectly profitable companies before Nationalisation was so much of a bad thing. In fact in most cases they saved the Government a considerable amount of investment money.

Water would haver required Taxpayer money to fund its renewal of old Iron pipes, Telecom would have needed billions to upgrade the network to system x, and ultimately to the high speed backbone we see today. BP was a successful oil company and didnt need Nationalisation save for the Socailism control freak syndrome.

The privatisation that was unsuccessful was that of the railways, where the effective closed shop made sure that the operating companies (particularly Railtrack) were run by the ineffective and poor management that had run them under State control, it still isnt much better even under the renationalisation, same management is in power and is still ineffective.

Democracy hasnt existed properly in this country for many years, we all know that the Death Penalty would be brought back immediately were the electorate allowed to vote in a referendum, yet 630 MP's used to debate this annually and could never vote for it. Now they dont even debate it annually. Democracy was proved to be working poorly for the country when we invaded Iraq having been duped by Bliar Campbell et al with dodgy dossiers etc.

The problem in this country is once the election is over voters become taxpayers and interest in pursuing our interests is gone, the Party's objectives take over. Party politics is what has harmed this country and will continue to do so until the Whip system is brought under control.
 
#13
sanchauk said:
The more I think about it it the more I blame the dependency culture we see now on Maggie. She used N. Sea oil funds to cushion the unemployment consequences of moving to a globalised economy. I'm not sure that that was socialism per se.
Rather than blaming the fat, lazy, loafing layabouts who contribute nothing but feral kids?

msr
 
#14
I'd rather not head down the coup route both in this thread and in real life. If we're agreed that dependency leads to dictatorship (as per ealier poster's quote), then how do we move away from dependency in a democratic manner? Apologies for posting questions. I'm not trying to lead the discussion in any direction, just curious for others' opinions.
 
#15
sanchauk said:
I'd rather not head down the coup route both in this thread and in real life. If we're agreed that dependency leads to dictatorship (as per ealier poster's quote), then how do we move away from dependency in a democratic manner? Apologies for posting questions. I'm not trying to lead the discussion in any direction, just curious for others' opinions.
Shut down the welfare state is the only way of doing that- there'd be riots and civil disorder-I'd be up for it, but society seems to prefer moaning about its problems and letting them go on rather then do anything about it if doing something may involve difficulty or pain...
 
#16
msr said:
sanchauk said:
The more I think about it it the more I blame the dependency culture we see now on Maggie. She used N. Sea oil funds to cushion the unemployment consequences of moving to a globalised economy. I'm not sure that that was socialism per se.
Rather than blaming the fat, lazy, loafing layabouts who contribute nothing but feral kids?

msr
People are like water, they take the easiest route generally. Of course the feral chavs are responsible for their own fate. However, they didn't create the conditions that make it so damn easy to choose to be themselves!
 
#17
sanchauk said:
Is the democratic process in Britain fatally compromised when there is a critcal mass who benefit from the state whose vote can be bought by the party that promises them the most, whilst the net contribrutors are marginalised?
The irony is that it was New Liarbour and Gordon Broon who created the 'critical mass who benefit from the state' in the first place by making them dependent on and, they hoped, grateful for assitance when it all started to go belly up.

They will exercise their democratic rights by booting this worthless government out of office and possibly into third place on the opposition benches behind the Lib Dems once the election comes.
 
#18
Any system that rewards doing nothing in return for votes at the expense of the minority of earners is destined to eventual failure. This time is near - 15 June 2009, when the next Euro elections combined with (possibly) the English council elections take place. Although it will not rid the country of the parasitic Liarbour party, it will show them just how unpopular they really are and may (I did say may) push polititians of all parties to start listening to those who pay for everything and a little less to those who spend it all.
 
#19
Bowman Guru:
After all, we now have a world health service which is struggling no matter how much money is pumped into it, (not that the influx of foreigners is putting any sort of strain on it.)
The unmentionable word of Insurance is what is required for the NHS, not National Insurance, but proper health insurance scheme based on the European model. France, Germany, Spain, Italy and Holland run excellent health schemes for about 1/10th the cost, with a far superior service. The thing the state cannot do is provide service efficiently or effectively. Railways, Schools, Postal services are testament to that, health is no different.

I would hate to go to a system like the USA where there is little or no provision for the poor in society, nor would I like the Philippines where I saw families queuing at the Hospital finance office to pay for their loved ones treatment in cash, usually in advance of their life saving treatment.
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
#20
bobthedog said:
Socialism didnt die under Thatcher, it was heavily disguised and became Blairism, what you are now seeing is our economy is uncompetitive with other economies and our industrial base is now compromised.

Under New Labour the number of people who rely on the government for handouts has increased dramatically, its pure jerrymandering.

What good is the tax credit scheme, when you pay the tax in the first place and have to claim it back? Would it not be better to reduce taxes in the first place for those on lower incomes? This fuel aid scheme is another version of the purchase of votes!

Nu Labours answer to the lower paid was the abolition of the 10Pence tax rate, resulting in a panic measure which still leaves 1.5 million worse off, but everyone else better off. Brown has presided over his own demise!

What is an affront to democracy is when a manifesto commitment for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty is denied to the country. Brown is simply a control freak and knows that a vote for the treaty would have been NO.

Unfortunately I think democracy in this country has been badly damaged, with unelected officials running various quango's that impact our daily lives. These unelected officials are usually friends of friends in politics.
It keeps civil serpents, outsourcers, researchers, lobbyists and other hangers-on in jobs.

I've never seen the reason for all the allowances, rebates, etc. Why not have 'how much did you/your company earn last year?' 'give us 12% (or whatever) of it'.

Easy to calculate, easy to collect, not easy to fiddle. Job done.

Don't get me started on selling the democracy to quangos. By the time Maggie had started it, Johnnie had continued it, Tony had refined it and Gordon finessed it, I'm surprised there's a need for anyone in Parliament, as our lives are run by Capita, Eds, etc. if not the non-elected EU gauleiters.
 

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