"Avoidable accident" on the ranges, report released on death in Tain last year

#42
read the report, google "root cause analysis"

You are right he did but why did it happen is much more complex and the aim of the investigation\analysis is to prevent it happening again

One causal issue brought up was the perception that he was an experienced soldier
Trained soldier with an Afghan tour .
Sounds pretty qualified to me.
 
#44
No, I haven't read the report.
So let me go out on a limb here.....
If the experienced soldier had taken the mag off and opened the breech would this have happened ?
No....but then is all the blame on him? In your world you dont need RCO's or Safety Supervisors as experienced soldiers should carry out the drill correctly and if they dont they bear the consequences. We also then dont need to take into account tiredness, pressure, environmental conditions and the fact the bloke could be having a "off day". Measures are put in place to take into account all of the above so when even experienced soldiers sometimes balls it up the outcome is not hopefully catastrophic.
 
#45
An experienced soldier has an ND and kills himself.
No one else's fault. RIP.
If he was supposed to have been unloaded then it's entirely the RCOs fault that it wasn't.
I am not professing any expert knowledge of either this case, or of Pam 21 but it is worth noting that Duty Holding policy was recently updated (May) for both Defence and sS.

The current view is that neither of these statements is wholly correct when dealing with trained soldiers. The Army view (read CESO(A) for DCGS) is forming around the notion that, whilst all planning and preparation needs to be in place according to the safe system of training, a 'trained' firer is a 'suitably qualified and experienced person' (SQEP) and thus, when involved in RtL activity, all trained soldiers have a duty of care towards themselves and others. I believe that this is reflected in the HSE legislation, but I haven't looked it up.

In other words 'trained' means that you know how to operate the equipment safely and 'experienced' means that you are expected to know what good looks like.

Nobody likes people dying during training and being in charge (rightly) carries a heavy burden of responsibility, but to place responsibility for personal safety of exercising troops at all times and in all circumstances wholly onto the shoulders of the staff is both unreasonable and simply transfers risk of soldiers lacking situational awareness from training to operations.

Not arguing that it is the right view, but a pragmatic one that requires people to step away from absolute positions reflected in the quotes above.

The relevance of this post to the thread may go up or down. Do not exceed the recommended dose. Your mileage may vary. Consult your physician if symptoms persist.
 
#46
I have only had a quick read of the first couple of pages, didn`t see any mention of SASC, I would have thought that this training would have had some input from them

Archie
It did, in that the SASC were asked to review the planning for the range activity on the day. And they got it wrong - not critically, but sufficient to make me raise an eyebrow at the extent of their misunderstanding.
 
#47
No....but then is all the blame on him? In your world you dont need RCO's or Safety Supervisors as experienced soldiers should carry out the drill correctly and if they dont they bear the consequences. We also then dont need to take into account tiredness, pressure, environmental conditions and the fact the bloke could be having a "off day". Measures are put in place to take into account all of the above so when even experienced soldiers sometimes balls it up the outcome is not hopefully catastrophic.
From reading the opinions here, not the report, it would appear the Range Controller did not do his job that day.
If a tired soldier went into ' I'm only going to do what I'm told' mode, then possibly there is a lesson to be learned.
Trained and experienced soldiers have been on the ranges many times, will have observed there is a procedure of loading, firing, making safe etc and if that procedure is done differently one day, most would be thinking ' Hang on, that twat hasn't given the unload command' . In other words, I still have a loaded weapon.
 
#48
I believe that this is reflected in the HSE legislation, but I haven't looked it up.
"
7General duties of employees at work.
It shall be the duty of every employee while at work—

(a)to take reasonable care for the health and safety of himself and of other persons who may be affected by his acts or omissions at work; and

(b)as regards any duty or requirement imposed on his employer or any other person by or under any of the relevant statutory provisions, to co-operate with him so far as is necessary to enable that duty or requirement to be performed or complied with.

Annotations:

Modifications etc. (not altering text)
C30Pt. 1 modified (1.1.2018) by The Ionising Radiations Regulations 2017 (S.I. 2017/1075), regs. 1(2), 2(3) (with regs. 2(5), 3, Sch. 8)
C35Ss. 1-59 applied by S.I. 2001/2127 art. 8A 8B (as inserted (E.W.S.) (6.4.2011) by The Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 (Application outside Great Britain) (Variation) Order 2011 (S.I. 2011/745), arts. 1(1), 3(2))
C74Ss. 1–25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 33, 34–59, 80, 81 and 82 applied by S.I. 1989/840, arts. 2–10
C75S. 7 modified (15.11.2000) by S.I. 2000/2831, reg. 5(1)
Ss. 1-59, 80-82 applied (11.7.2001) by S.I. 2001/2127, arts. 4(1), 5(1)(2), 6(1), 7(1), 8(1), 10 (with art. 11) (as amended by S.I. 2009/1750, art. 2(2)(4))
C76Ss. 1-59, 80-82 applied (temp.) (5.8.2009) by The Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 (Application outside Great Britain) Order 2001 (S.I. 2001/2127), arts. 8A, 8B (as inserted by S.I. 2009/1750, art. 2(3))
C77S. 7 modified (E.W.S.) (1.10.2014) by The Genetically Modified Organisms (Contained Use) Regulations 2014 (S.I. 2014/1663), regs. 1, 4(2) (with reg. 3(1)(2))
8Duty not to interfere with or misuse things provided pursuant to certain provisions.
No person shall intentionally or recklessly interfere with or misuse anything provided in the interests of health, safety or welfare in pursuance of any of the relevant statutory provisions.

"
 
#49
From reading the opinions here, not the report, it would appear the Range Controller did not do his job that day.
If a tired soldier went into ' I'm only going to do what I'm told' mode, then possibly there is a lesson to be learned.
Trained and experienced soldiers have been on the ranges many times, will have observed there is a procedure of loading, firing, making safe etc and if that procedure is done differently one day, most would be thinking ' Hang on, that twat hasn't given the unload command' . In other words, I still have a loaded weapon.
I got about halfway through the report on the train this morning, and so far, it reads like the course was something of a dog's dinner, with at least one important planned element (lessons 1 to 7 on the sniper rifle) dropped on day 3 of week 1, in favour of going shooting.

What this boils down to is that the deceased had never in his life had drilled into him the most essential habits for the safe handling of a bolt action rifle.

Surround that omission with other slack behaviours associated with a misplaced assumption (by SNCOs) of high competence (among the junior ranks), and you can practically hear The Emperor cracking his knuckles in anticipation of an opportunity to strike.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#50
Add the peer pressure that riflemen and privates are less likely to pull a jnco up on his handling and you do have a culture of rank knows best, sad but this is evident in all organisations not just the army.
 
#52
I am completely with you on procedures being important and deviation from that carrying risk.
On the other hand, I have never held an SA80 in my life, but I bet I could work out how to make one safe in about 10 seconds.
 
#53
A good report, and I read the Castlemartin SI report the same day. Both tragic events, and very thoroughly analysed. I find a good place to start is the DG DSA summary at the end.

My observation - and just a personal view - but I feel that the Castlemartin SI was perhaps a little more generous in assessing the wider factors around the accident there than this one.
 
#54
I am completely with you on procedures being important and deviation from that carrying risk.
On the other hand, I have never held an SA80 in my life, but I bet I could work out how to make one safe in about 10 seconds.
In a nice safe, warm, clean environment where you're well rested, maybe.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#55
In a nice safe, warm, clean environment where you're well rested, maybe.
When the rifle companies were spending about two weeks converting to the A1, Recce was allocated two days. We had a morning on WHT followed by TOETs, afternoon on the 30 m range getting them basically set up. The second day was at Ballykinlar on the converted to ETR Gallery range shooting to zero, familiarise and culminating in an auto session from 500m. A great use of two days. The Yound NCO who took us had just done his SCBC and SAA and despite being not my favourite teddy bear was very much on the ball about the weapon.
We only had two days off from ops to do this, needs must!
 
#56
I am completely with you on procedures being important and deviation from that carrying risk.
On the other hand, I have never held an SA80 in my life, but I bet I could work out how to make one safe in about 10 seconds.
you'd be doing fruitbats till your arms fell off







(Lympschwitz punishment for not managing to learn your NSPs quick enough)
 
#58
Its worth saying READ THE REPORT again

Its thorough and understandable.

It should have those in range training positions thinking hard and seriously about how they go about their profession and, importantly thinking clearly in a modern "Behavioural" way.

So often people forget or don`t even realise the reason why procedures policy etc are put in place

In the area\industry I work in this training cycle wouldn`t have even got started
 
#60
**** me, while sad a lad lost his life its darwinism in action. At least he didnt kill anyone else

He was "Chosen man" top squaddie in his organisation FFS

A moment of over casual, over confident madness
Combined with lack of effective oversight and application of basic rules by the range conducting staff it would appear. What a sad and pointless way to go.
 

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