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"Avoidable accident" on the ranges, report released on death in Tain last year

Fang_Farrier

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#1
Soldier's death was 'avoidable accident'


Not great reading,
"Whilst resting his chin on the weapon's suppressor, equipment or clothing most probably snagged the rifle's trigger inadvertently, resulting in its discharge.

"That his weapon was in an unsafe condition with a round chambered was extremely likely to have been caused by an incomplete unload drill being carried out earlier that day."

Ran several searches and couldn't see this mentioned elsewhere, if it is, I apologise.
 
#2
'Resting his head on a suppressor'... what could go wrong? And this was an infantry units, in house sniper course?

Very sad for him and the family.
 
#4
**** me, while sad a lad lost his life its darwinism in action. At least he didnt kill anyone else

He was "Chosen man" top squaddie in his organisation FFS

A moment of over casual, over confident madness
 
#5
But as the report points out, the end of an error chain that could’ve been broken previously.

Having been subject to a formal safety investigation, I was entirely happy that there was not a hint of an agenda behind their actions, save wanting to stop it from happening again. In particular, the human factors team were excellent.
 
#6
But as the report points out, the end of an error chain that could’ve been broken previously.

Having been subject to a formal safety investigation, I was entirely happy that there was not a hint of an agenda behind their actions, save wanting to stop it from happening again. In particular, the human factors team were excellent.
Its an incredibly thorough investigation and report, No one comes out of it "Unscathed" unfortunately. A lot of quite nuanced "failures" along the way. The "big boys rules" ethos prevalent contributed to the swiss cheese diagram hitting its end result
A great example of incident investigation and RCA

A real shame.
 
#7
Pretty sad really and we have all been on types of course where standards were relaxed and blase conditions arose because of student greater experience etc was envisaged and assumed. Especially as it mentioned, part of a "big boys" type course.
Couple of things that occured to me though.
1. Whilst these types of accidents are thankfully few and far between the primacy of the Police did seem to maybe hinder the military investigation side of life or am i totally wrong? Maybe there is a future requirement where its more of a joint condition between the mil and civ Police in these types of investigations?
2. Again we have all been in those conditions....ISO containers, cyalume and mobile phone screens for lights but surely investment in proper training facilities again is shown to be lacking and the excuses because "its always like that" and "well its a Sniper course so they will be used to being wet and cold" should now be accepted. From what i read, it was early stages of being on the range, just getting rounds on targets accurately. Therefore somewhere with lights, space etc should of been expected and they would not have therefore became part of contributing factors of the incident.
 
#8
My reading was that the no-light thing was in part to preserve night vision.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#9
we have all been on types of course where standards were relaxed and blase conditions arose because of student greater experience etc was envisaged and assumed. Especially as it mentioned, part of a "big boys" type course.
Forgive me, I'm old, it's late, I've had a long day, and all that, but reading the BBC report (3 times) I somehow didn't find anything of that nature in their text.

Least of all the bit about "we've all been on courses where . . . " . (I certainly haven't, ever)

Perhaps you could spare the time to quote those pieces of the report, verbatim, on this thread.
 
#10
Forgive me, I'm old, it's late, I've had a long day, and all that, but reading the BBC report (3 times) I somehow didn't find anything of that nature in their text.

Least of all the bit about "we've all been on courses where . . . " . (I certainly haven't, ever)

Perhaps you could spare the time to quote those pieces of the report, verbatim, on this thread.
I am not on about the BBC report. I am on about the Service Inquiry at the following link......

https://assets.publishing.service.g...AIN_SI_Combined_Revised_Final_Redacted-RT.pdf

You are right, its late, i am also old but done bugger all today!

But your comment about "we've all been on courses...". You may understand more why i said it after reading the correctly referred publication but an example is you do your basic driving type course early in career, all correct and hands on the steering wheel at the 10-to2 position. Then later on you do some sort of instructional course. They don't regurgitate all the basics as everyone assumes you can carry out the driving bit correctly (in the accident case, the unload and correctly raising your hand) and concentrate more on the instructional delivery bit is correct (in the accident case, hitting targets up to 900m away).
 
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#11
I am not on about the BBC report. I am on about the Service Inquiry at the following link......

https://assets.publishing.service.g...AIN_SI_Combined_Revised_Final_Redacted-RT.pdf

You are right, its late, i am also old but done bugger all today!

But your comment about "we've all been on courses...". You may understand more why i said it after reading the correctly referred publication but an example is you do your basic driving type course early in career, all correct and hands on the steering wheel at the 10-to2 position. Then later on you do some sort of instructional course. They don't regurgitate all the basics as everyone assumes you can carry out the driving bit correctly (in the accident case, the unload and correctly raising your hand) and concentrate more on the instructional delivery bit is correct (in the accident case, hitting targets up to 900m away).
Thank you - that's genuinely helpful, and I appreciate it.
 
#12
I have only had a quick read of the first couple of pages, didn`t see any mention of SASC, I would have thought that this training would have had some input from them

Archie
 

Fang_Farrier

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#13
1741 Accident occurs
1743 Emergency Services called
1815 Ambulance arrives
1840 Doctor arrives


Even for Tain that's a very poor response time. The training area is only a few minutes outside the town.
 

Fang_Farrier

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#14
I have only had a quick read of the first couple of pages, didn`t see any mention of SASC, I would have thought that this training would have had some input from them

Archie
You probably stopped before the Train the Trainers reference then.
 

Fang_Farrier

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#15
What surprises me if the number of Scots DG on the course, I didn't know they had snipers.
 
#16
What surprises me if the number of Scots DG on the course, I didn't know they had snipers.
Due to 2020 they lost the tanks and became light......using Jackals. So having Snipers fits in more with that role now.
 
#17
What surprises me if the number of Scots DG on the course, I didn't know they had snipers.
DGs reroled from ch2 to jackals… sniping is handy for istar. Snipers intermingled with recce, produce excellent patrol reports.
fecking spell check sitar aint istar
 
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#18
I have only had a quick read of the first couple of pages, didn`t see any mention of SASC, I would have thought that this training would have had some input from them

Archie
I've read nothing yet beyond the BBC report: I've the impression it was a Unit sniper cadre, rather than a full-blown sniper qualifying course.

It's over 30 years ago, but back then, one of my responsibilities as a District SO3 Training, was to organise an SASC-supported quals-earning District concentration.

From which I'm extrapolating my above hypothesis.

Even so, you would expect (hope, at the very least) that qualified unit instructors would apply in detail the standards to which they were taught to adhere when they were awarded their instructor qualifications.

This is, BTW, the second thread I've followed lately, where slackness on the part of supposedly expert individuals had led to avoidable death. The first was Cav, and had Cav arguing that (somehow) deviation from the drills as taught, is both to be expected, and forgivable.

Let's hope that there's no infantry out there on Arrse who would endorse that view.

Safety drills are drills for a reason.
 
#19
I've read nothing yet beyond the BBC report: I've the impression it was a Unit sniper cadre, rather than a full-blown sniper qualifying course.

It's over 30 years ago, but back then, one of my responsibilities as a District SO3 Training, was to organise an SASC-supported quals-earning District concentration.

From which I'm extrapolating my above hypothesis.

Even so, you would expect (hope, at the very least) that qualified unit instructors would apply in detail the standards to which they were taught to adhere when they were awarded their instructor qualifications.

This is, BTW, the second thread I've followed lately, where slackness on the part of supposedly expert individuals had led to avoidable death. The first was Cav, and had Cav arguing that (somehow) deviation from the drills as taught, is both to be expected, and forgivable.

Let's hope that there's no infantry out there on Arrse who would endorse that view.

Safety drills are drills for a reason.
I know you haven't had time yet, but you need to scan the SI report. I posted the link at #3.
 
#20
Stonker....it seems that things have certainly changed. Centralised training was mentioned being held at Brecon but this was not suitable due to limited capacity and high failure rates. It was then decided to put the now called Sniper Operator's Course down to Div/Bde level being undertaken by nominated Units.
 

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