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Australian Defense Force selects Boeing AH-64E Guardian to replace the Tiger

apart from all this mud-slinging,can anyone actually point out what was wrong with the Tiger? What actually failed on it? was it avionics? was it the gun? was it down to bad servicing or what?

Not specifics, but availability definitely leaving something to be desired.

“The Tiger has had a troubled history – essential upgrades are programmed to maintain the capability’s effectiveness. Defence will invest in a future armed reconnaissance capability to replace the Tiger, which could include manned or unmanned systems or a combination of both, to be introduced from the mid-2020s,” the White Paper said.

'Eight months later, in September 2016, the Australian National Audit Office (ANAO) delivered another blow: in a 64-page report on the Tiger it identified 76 “capability deficiencies”, of which the Department of Defence (DoD) deemed 60 to be “critical”.



E2A:

'The Tiger helicopter fleet has not yet delivered the original capability expected by the Australian Government, and continues to experience higher than expected sustainment costs and lower than expected aircraft availability.

  • The Chief of Army declared Final Operational Capability for the Tiger on 14 April 2016, allowing the helicopter to be operationally employed. The declaration was seven years later than planned, and was accompanied by nine operational caveats.
  • As at April 2016, the Tiger also had 76 capability deficiencies relating to Army’s current and future operational requirements, 60 of which were deemed by Defence to be critical. Other key limitations relate to shipborne operations, pilot flying hours, interoperability and communications, airworthiness, and the roof-mounted sight.
  • To date, sustainment costs have exceeded the original contract value. The 15 year (2004–2019) sustainment contract provided for expenditure of $571 million.4 That sum was expended by June 2014, and expenditure as at June 2016 was $921 million.
  • As at June 2016, the cost per flying hour for the Tiger fleet was $30 335, compared to a target of $20 000. The long-term average was $39 472 per hour. Defence negotiated a cost cap to control sustainment cost growth in 2014.
  • On average only 3.5 aircraft of the operational fleet (16 aircraft) were serviceable at 10am on any given day in 2015, against a target of 12 aircraft.

  • The Acquisition contract for the Tiger system was completed in 2013. The Tiger acquisition had a budget of $2.03 billion. Defence spent $1.86 billion on the acquisition (capital expenditure) and the remainder ($170 million) was unspent contingency.
  • The acquisition missed all but one of its scheduled key milestones. In April 2016, the Chief of Army declared that the Tiger had achieved the Final Operational Capability milestone, some seven years behind schedule. The developmental nature of the aircraft was a major factor in the Tiger’s delayed introduction into service.'

Tiger—Army's Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter | Australian National Audit Office
 
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Apart from Cherman and Australian unability to use it, nothing much. Probably down to a lack of experience operating combat helicopters.
For the German ones there are mostly quality problems, specifications not met, the odd software bug, the odd hardware bug, reliability problems, in short they cobbled it together as they cobble their cars together. This then results in really poor availability.
The Tiger is a somewhat more sophisticated reconnaissance helicopter that is far above the price of a first-class attack helicopter, be it in purchase or in operation.

Some of the problems were adressed with ASGARD-F but at this point the German Tigers's are only allowed to operate in Mali with excemption permit. Mali is a bit too hot and some components are obviously designed to strike from 8 to 18 and then get pensioned off after 53 days in country.

All in all, it was a bad buy and hopefully the last time to buy from Airbus.
 
For the German ones there are mostly quality problems, specifications not met, the odd software bug, the odd hardware bug, reliability problems, in short they cobbled it together as they cobble their cars together. This then results in really poor availability.
The Tiger is a somewhat more sophisticated reconnaissance helicopter that is far above the price of a first-class attack helicopter, be it in purchase or in operation.

Some of the problems were adressed with ASGARD-F but at this point the German Tigers's are only allowed to operate in Mali with excemption permit. Mali is a bit too hot and some components are obviously designed to strike from 8 to 18 and then get pensioned off after 53 days in country.

All in all, it was a bad buy and hopefully the last time to buy from Airbus.

...general lack of balls, spine, stomach and any kind of relevant operational experience flying combat helicopters....
 
10 years ago, French Tigre, alongside Gazelle armed with HOT ATGWs, were already delivering the good news to bad people, this time in Libya, and from the sea.

 
...general lack of balls, spine, stomach and any kind of relevant operational experience flying combat helicopters....
Still out of your depth Frenchie? I really can't help you with your "general lack of balls, spine, stomach and any kind of relevant operational experience", as I can't help you with your with your cowardly evasions and fearful topic changes. After all you are French and that summarizes it perfectly.

Back to this french heap.
It is build to french standards, that means a cobbled together abomination.

Even your "Tigres" had massive problems with the cabling and got rewired.
Your "One wrong-way driver? Hundreds!" is just childish. 2 of 4 User nations have massive constrictions in using the Tiger and think of scrapping it. Your childish attempts of blaming the users, not the producer may work in the Kindergarten called France, in the real world they don't work.
 
10 years ago, French Tigre, alongside Gazelle armed with HOT ATGWs, were already delivering the good news to bad people, this time in Libya, and from the sea.

Just save your publicity for the French junk, which, like everything from France, is more appearance than substance.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
So, we've gone vegetarian tonight. I pointed out to SWMBO that she's a girl who loves her meat. There was a palpable silence. I'm sure that the storm can be weathered.

STOP PRESS: She hasn't put enough balsamic in.

Back on track...

Sangiovese, for choice.

Quiet segue into Monday.

How's everyone else doing?




Oh. Something about helicopters and two world wars.
 
Still out of your depth Frenchie? I really can't help you with your "general lack of balls, spine, stomach and any kind of relevant operational experience", as I can't help you with your with your cowardly evasions and fearful topic changes. After all you are French and that summarizes it perfectly.

Back to this french heap.
It is build to french standards, that means a cobbled together abomination.

Even your "Tigres" had massive problems with the cabling and got rewired.
Your "One wrong-way driver? Hundreds!" is just childish. 2 of 4 User nations have massive constrictions in using the Tiger and think of scrapping it. Your childish attempts of blaming the users, not the producer may work in the Kindergarten called France, in the real world they don't work.

How is the froth going ?
 
How is the froth going ?
Tell me. Someone dares to point out the problems with the Tiger and you go all teary eyed and post rubbish about how good the French can handle it.

You can't wish the problems away, no matter how hard you try. They are real and they are down to Airbus not able to build up to international standard. As simple as that.
 
If the tiger is as shite as the bratwurst biter says, why are targets falling when hit in Africa. Or is it possible the Germans are sneering due to their inability to engage elimate and eradicate anyone.
 
If the tiger is as shite as the bratwurst biter says, why are targets falling when hit in Africa. Or is it possible the Germans are sneering due to their inability to engage elimate and eradicate anyone.
You forget one thing Nac Mac Feegle, not only the bratwurst biter says it is shite, the Australians also say it is shite. They want to get rid of it faster than a kangaroo gets smashed by a road train, so I dare say it isn't down to German ineptitude.
Maybe you should engage elimate and eradicate your shite approach to me, just because I handle your French friend a bit rough, the problems with the Tiger are there and neither he nor you can discuss them away.
I really have no quarrel with you, and I even don't want to quarrel with you because I really don't give a shite about you, just do me a favour and don't bore me.
 
So, we've gone vegetarian tonight. I pointed out to SWMBO that she's a girl who loves her meat. There was a palpable silence. I'm sure that the storm can be weathered.

STOP PRESS: She hasn't put enough balsamic in.

Back on track...

Sangiovese, for choice.

Quiet segue into Monday.

How's everyone else doing?




Oh. Something about helicopters and two world wars.
Well if we can provoke another Franco German war it will bugger up the EU for a generation. Win win for Brexit again and also sock it to the Irish. What's not to like?
 
They manage to build airliners just fine. I work on A320s and A330s and they are reliable (but do like to throw the odd wobble),well built and tech support is as good as it gets. Quite why tech support for the Australian Tiger is so lacking is a mystery, given that they support plenty of Airbus aircraft in Australia anyway. Perhaps that helicopter is the unwanted stepchild of Airbus aircraft and even their own heli people want nothing to do with it. From reading the Australian report on the craft,it appears that the ADF bought the Mark 1, which were essentially preproduction prototypes, added their own requisites and the resultant mishmash was barely fit for service in temperate Europe,let alone Oz or the badlands of Afghanistan. We in Ireland had the same shite with the SA365N2 Dauphin and we got shot of them after a relatively short time,as they were also hangar queens and ate parts and money. Perhaps the ADF should just get Mi-35s and be done with it.
 
They manage to build airliners just fine. I work on A320s and A330s and they are reliable (but do like to throw the odd wobble),well built and tech support is as good as it gets. Quite why tech support for the Australian Tiger is so lacking is a mystery, given that they support plenty of Airbus aircraft in Australia anyway. Perhaps that helicopter is the unwanted stepchild of Airbus aircraft and even their own heli people want nothing to do with it. From reading the Australian report on the craft,it appears that the ADF bought the Mark 1, which were essentially preproduction prototypes, added their own requisites and the resultant mishmash was barely fit for service in temperate Europe,let alone Oz or the badlands of Afghanistan. We in Ireland had the same shite with the SA365N2 Dauphin and we got shot of them after a relatively short time,as they were also hangar queens and ate parts and money. Perhaps the ADF should just get Mi-35s and be done with it.
I get the impression the Ozzies did something of a "Canadian" momement ie get something thats fully functional* and proven design (Upholders) then decide you want to rip out some vzery significant systems and install a replacement system that wasnt designed to work with the remaining systems nor they it. At which point it all goes a bite Pete Tong and recriminations abound and the basic design suddenly gets slated for what was really an overly ambitious / badly understood design integration on the modification side.


I wouldnt look to closely at German issues and conclude its shite, you could easily be convinced Typhoon is shite because of all the Issues the Luftwaffe have - yet other operators have no such issues - it seems a lot of German woes are budget and political interferance inflicted.

Edit lest this bring about another spate of handbagging an example closer to home would be the Chinook fiasco
Take Chinook - Upgrade Chinook - realise new Avionics isnt going to meet the requirements introduce a number of non acceptable work arounds - Modify / remodify / demodify (choose prefferred term) to the origional Boeing standard - then upgrade in line with everything else

*Ok there were issues with laid up before shakedown cruise was completed and the fact they were laid up for a long time - but they relate to maintenance and build issues not design - AIUI
 
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The Aussie tiger isn't a stock machine.
I think from that sentence you might all gather the big open door for issues.
 
I get the impression the Ozzies did something of a "Canadian" momement ie get something thats fully functional* and proven design (Upholders) then decide you want to rip out some vzery significant systems and install a replacement system that wasnt designed to work with the remaining systems nor they it. At which point it all goes a bite Pete Tong and recriminations abound and the basic design suddenly gets slated for what was really an overly ambitious / badly understood design integration on the modification side.
I don't want to go off on a tangent but in that case what is going to happen with the new Australian Submarines using your excellent case study.

Take an existing design for a Nuclear Hunter Killer boat and rebuild it as a conventional diesel powered one?
 

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