Australia on fire

Dicky Ticker

War Hero
And in Canada the forests are a provincial responsibility. Most of the forested land exists outside of parks. I don't know what the proportion is in Australia, but from what I've seen on maps a good deal of forests are outside of parks as well.
Like Canada the responsibility for fighting bushfires is down to the State or Territory the fire is in, while everyone was getting narky at ScoMo there actually wasn't much he could do at the Commonwealth level until the State or Territory heads requested assistance.

While the parks are controlled again at State or Territory level, the big bits in between are not as carefully managed.
 

ThunderBox

On ROPS
On ROPs
I've read mention that fire breaks should be 100m. I have seen (Canberra 2003) large embers being blown horizontally like huge tracer rounds. I'm sure the ideal distance would vary depending on vegetation density, type and proximity to settlements.
Agree, everyone is saying the ember ‘storm’ is well ahead of the fires and it is the embers igniting the fires.

What I have seen about the fire breaks is that the RFS can use them to back burn up to them so you compartmentalise a Forrest to fight the fire but if the wind isn’t in your favour it’s all out the window.

A little bit of irony is the power lines that run from the power stations and transformer yards are a good fire breaks mostly maintained and probably 20m+ wide with access tracks along them. I am sick of climate change hijacking the crisis.
 

Dicky Ticker

War Hero
I am sick of climate change hijacking the crisis.
Amen to that. On another forum I attend there are endless questions from around the world about why Australia doesn't just put the fires out, and whether the lack of water means Australia is going to burn to the ground and be uninhabitable. But always they slip the words "climate change" into the question as the cause which to them means "we must stop burning coal and driving our cars in order to stop bushfires ever happening again.
 
Amen to that. On another forum I attend there are endless questions from around the world about why Australia doesn't just put the fires out, and whether the lack of water means Australia is going to burn to the ground and be uninhabitable. But always they slip the words "climate change" into the question as the cause which to them means "we must stop burning coal and driving our cars in order to stop bushfires ever happening again.
Except by 'we' and 'our' they mean 'you' and 'your'.
 
An interesting article from the ABC:

We have already had countless bushfire inquiries. What good will it do to have another?
The Conversation
By Kevin Tolhurst
Posted earlier today at 2:30am

As our country battles the most extensive fires of our lifetime, there are increasing calls for a royal commission into the states and territories' preparedness and the Federal Government's response to the disaster.

A royal commission has coercive powers beyond a government inquiry, and the need for one implies there are facts and evidence that would otherwise be "hidden" to an inquiry or review.

Research I've recently conducted with other fire experts has concluded there have been 57 formal public inquiries, reviews and royal commissions related to bushfires and fire management since 1939, most of which are listed here.

I have given expert evidence to at least seven of them, including the 2009 Victorian Bushfires Royal Commission.

That is more than one inquiry every two years in the past 80 years. Do we need yet another?

Previous reviews that went nowhere
Some of the recommendations of the Stretton Royal Commission following the Black Friday fires of 1939 have still not been fully implemented.

Many of the recommendations of the subsequent 56 inquiries have not been fully implemented either, so it raises serious questions about whether another royal commission will offer anything new or compelling.

Royal commissions are also expensive and time consuming. The 2009 Victorian Bushfires Royal Commission had a budget of $40 million and ran for about 18 months.

This cost did not include the very considerable time and resources committed by various government agencies, companies and individuals who prepared and presented evidence to the commission.

When these costs are taken into account, I estimate the total cost of the commission to Victoria would have been much more.

This begs the question as to how money spent on a federal royal commission could be better used to deal with bushfire management across the country.

A comprehensive fire management plan already exists
In response to the 2009 Victorian Bushfires Royal Commission and various other inquiries, fire managers from government agencies in all states and territories prepared a National Bushfire Management Policy Statement for Forests and Rangelands.

This policy statement was signed off by all COAG (Council of Australian Governments) members by early 2012 and published in 2014. As yet, there has been little action on implementing this policy.

The policy had a stated vision that:

Fire regimes are effectively managed to maintain and enhance the protection of human life and property, and the health, biodiversity, tourism, recreation and production benefits derived from Australia's forests and rangelands.
Central to this vision is:

The role fire plays in maintaining and enhancing biodiversity. Sustainable long-term solutions are needed to address the causes of increased bushfire risk.
Policy must go beyond the response
To achieve the intent of this policy, 14 national goals were identified.

The first was to maintain appropriate fire regimes with the right combination of size, intensity, frequency and seasonality to properly sustain the ecosystems in Australia's forests and rangelands.

Another goal was to promote Indigenous Australians' knowledge of fire management. This recognised the benefits of widespread, low-intensity, patchy fires across the landscape that are sustainable and create landscapes resilient to climate extremes.

And a third goal was to create employment, workforce education and training in bushfire management. This recognised the importance of fire management as an integrated part of our lives.

These goals — along with the 11 others in the statement — still need to be developed into measurable outputs and outcomes, but they set a comprehensive and sustainable fire management strategy for the country.

This policy statement goes much further than just considering how to respond to a bushfire emergency, which seems to be the focus of the call for a new royal commission by Prime Minister Scott Morrison.

A better way forward
Over the past 20 years or so, the tertiary education for land managers, such as professional foresters and rangers, has been reduced to the level of generic "environmental science". This has largely been due to the politicisation of public land management.

Bushfire science is complex and fire management even more complex, so we need to have highly trained and qualified people managing our parks and forests. Instead, we typically have groups of individual specialists trying to collaborate without the strong leadership and direction such a task requires.

Are hazard reduction burns effective in managing bushfires?

We do not expect a physicist or chemist to build a bridge, even though they could provide great detail about the forces acting on it and the metallurgy of the structure.

Instead, we employ engineers. Likewise, we should not expect botanists, zoologists, ecologists or environmental scientists to manage the natural landscape. That, however, is what is happening now.

The responsibility for land and fire management rests with each state and territory government.

However, with support from the Federal Government and coordination through COAG, we should be able to develop an efficient and effective fire and land management program across Australia.

We've known all this for decades
In his 1939 royal commission report, Judge Stretton observed of the Victorian Forests Commission chairman of the time, AV Galbraith:

... if his Commission were placed beyond the reach of the sort of political authority to which he and his Department has for some time past been subjected, he would be of greater value to the State.
His meaning is clear: good fire and land management needs to be done with long-term perspective, not a short-term political focus.

Stretton also observed the need to have public support, because:

without their approval and goodwill, there can be no real plan.
Our changing climate has put more pressure on our natural ecosystems and the weaknesses in our land and fire management are being ruthlessly exposed.

Rather than using time and resources on inquiry No. 58, we should instead commit to fully implement the recommendations of all the previous inquiries, reviews and royal commissions we have already held.

Another royal commission will only reiterate what we have known for decades.

Kevin Tolhurst is honorary associate professor of fire ecology and management at the University of Melbourne. This article originally appeared on The Conversation.

 
An interesting article from the ABC:

We have already had countless bushfire inquiries. What good will it do to have another?
The Conversation
By Kevin Tolhurst
Posted earlier today at 2:30am

As our country battles the most extensive fires of our lifetime, there are increasing calls for a royal commission into the states and territories' preparedness and the Federal Government's response to the disaster.

A royal commission has coercive powers beyond a government inquiry, and the need for one implies there are facts and evidence that would otherwise be "hidden" to an inquiry or review.

Research I've recently conducted with other fire experts has concluded there have been 57 formal public inquiries, reviews and royal commissions related to bushfires and fire management since 1939, most of which are listed here.

I have given expert evidence to at least seven of them, including the 2009 Victorian Bushfires Royal Commission.

That is more than one inquiry every two years in the past 80 years. Do we need yet another?

Previous reviews that went nowhere
Some of the recommendations of the Stretton Royal Commission following the Black Friday fires of 1939 have still not been fully implemented.

Many of the recommendations of the subsequent 56 inquiries have not been fully implemented either, so it raises serious questions about whether another royal commission will offer anything new or compelling.

Royal commissions are also expensive and time consuming. The 2009 Victorian Bushfires Royal Commission had a budget of $40 million and ran for about 18 months.

This cost did not include the very considerable time and resources committed by various government agencies, companies and individuals who prepared and presented evidence to the commission.

When these costs are taken into account, I estimate the total cost of the commission to Victoria would have been much more.

This begs the question as to how money spent on a federal royal commission could be better used to deal with bushfire management across the country.

A comprehensive fire management plan already exists
In response to the 2009 Victorian Bushfires Royal Commission and various other inquiries, fire managers from government agencies in all states and territories prepared a National Bushfire Management Policy Statement for Forests and Rangelands.

This policy statement was signed off by all COAG (Council of Australian Governments) members by early 2012 and published in 2014. As yet, there has been little action on implementing this policy.

The policy had a stated vision that:


Central to this vision is:


Policy must go beyond the response
To achieve the intent of this policy, 14 national goals were identified.

The first was to maintain appropriate fire regimes with the right combination of size, intensity, frequency and seasonality to properly sustain the ecosystems in Australia's forests and rangelands.

Another goal was to promote Indigenous Australians' knowledge of fire management. This recognised the benefits of widespread, low-intensity, patchy fires across the landscape that are sustainable and create landscapes resilient to climate extremes.

And a third goal was to create employment, workforce education and training in bushfire management. This recognised the importance of fire management as an integrated part of our lives.

These goals — along with the 11 others in the statement — still need to be developed into measurable outputs and outcomes, but they set a comprehensive and sustainable fire management strategy for the country.

This policy statement goes much further than just considering how to respond to a bushfire emergency, which seems to be the focus of the call for a new royal commission by Prime Minister Scott Morrison.

A better way forward
Over the past 20 years or so, the tertiary education for land managers, such as professional foresters and rangers, has been reduced to the level of generic "environmental science". This has largely been due to the politicisation of public land management.

Bushfire science is complex and fire management even more complex, so we need to have highly trained and qualified people managing our parks and forests. Instead, we typically have groups of individual specialists trying to collaborate without the strong leadership and direction such a task requires.

Are hazard reduction burns effective in managing bushfires?

We do not expect a physicist or chemist to build a bridge, even though they could provide great detail about the forces acting on it and the metallurgy of the structure.

Instead, we employ engineers. Likewise, we should not expect botanists, zoologists, ecologists or environmental scientists to manage the natural landscape. That, however, is what is happening now.

The responsibility for land and fire management rests with each state and territory government.

However, with support from the Federal Government and coordination through COAG, we should be able to develop an efficient and effective fire and land management program across Australia.

We've known all this for decades
In his 1939 royal commission report, Judge Stretton observed of the Victorian Forests Commission chairman of the time, AV Galbraith:


His meaning is clear: good fire and land management needs to be done with long-term perspective, not a short-term political focus.

Stretton also observed the need to have public support, because:


Our changing climate has put more pressure on our natural ecosystems and the weaknesses in our land and fire management are being ruthlessly exposed.

Rather than using time and resources on inquiry No. 58, we should instead commit to fully implement the recommendations of all the previous inquiries, reviews and royal commissions we have already held.

Another royal commission will only reiterate what we have known for decades.

Kevin Tolhurst is honorary associate professor of fire ecology and management at the University of Melbourne. This article originally appeared on The Conversation.

Yes very interesting article, how unlike the ABC. Usually broadcasting climate change propaganda, the BBC's younger slightly more left wing little sister.
 
The Australian is reporting that a C130 water tanker fighting fires south of Canberra is 'missing'. Canberra Airport reported closed due to bushfire smoke.

E2A: Same source reports that the aircraft has crashed, but NFI.

E2A again: now confirmed as crashed, large fireball seen. Three crew dead.

Canberra Airport today:

03f6236841fec7138ef99a0ea9c50864.jpg
 
Last edited:
The Australian is reporting that a C130 water tanker fighting fires south of Canberra is 'missing'. Canberra Airport reported closed due to bushfire smoke.

E2A: Same source reports that the aircraft has crashed, but NFI.
Unfortunately abc reporting 3 dead in a C130 water bomber
 
A Canadian Forces C-17 (known in Canada as the C-177) will be going to Australia with a cargo of fire retardant and then will be used to provide airlift support and to take photos of the fires to help evaluate them and predict how they will spread.
This is the CBC story.
Canadian Forces sending plane, crew to help fight Australia wildfires

This is the announcement on the Canadian government's web site.
 

Dicky Ticker

War Hero
From a mate who is in the CFS, there is a lot of international cooperation between the US, Canada and Australia on the subject of bushfire / wildfire. Each fire is slightly different in terms of the terrain it is burning over and the type of vegetation that is burning so learning the lessons from each other is a step forward.

You would be surprised at the amount of science behind fires
 
Nice and moist in partof God's state:


Yet:


It's a big old country.
 
details here about the fire in the Namadgi National Park, possibly caused by a 'defence' helicopter. described as the worst since 2003.

 
Nice and moist in partof God's state:


Yet:


It's a big old country.
I still reckon my idea of a giant pipeline between QLD, NSW and VIC to ferry water around has merit.
 

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