Australia has a sensible idea

S

Spider39

Guest
#41
Depends - manning is an issue, but its always been an issue for the RN. But the problem that the Aussies have is slightly wider than the RN - its essentially a fulltime dependency on hoping that you can entice ex-RN and increasingly ex-USN personnel down under to do 5-6 years to provide skills and capabilities that they cant recruit, retain or generate themselves. It costs them a fortune in offering it, knowing that a reasonable number of the ADF has to be provided from by overseas on an enduring basis, not just to fill the odd gap.

Navy News is regularly full of recruiting adverts for the RAN and RNZN - these forces structurally can't work without significant external assistance. The RN currently is gapped in places by contrast, but has the training schools and career pipelines to fix the problem over time internally - although this does take time.
If I was in the RN and saw that advertisement i'd leave that paper floating in mid air on my way out the door [mind you I would want a written assurance by the RAN that I would not be gang raped in the name of "banter" first ] .

But it seems to me our retention of skills is only going to get worse what with these attractive incentives ,the fact young people have good opportunity's in civvy street and the unfortunate fact the RN very rarely sees the "25 year men" as often as it once did hence when a sailor gets trained into a skill now he can easily head into a far better paid job out of service .
 
#42
There is a reason why the RAN is short of people. Put it this way, I don't know many people charging over the horizon the join them.
 
#45
If I was in the RN and saw that advertisement i'd leave that paper floating in mid air on my way out the door [mind you I would want a written assurance by the RAN that I would not be gang raped in the name of "banter" first ] .

But it seems to me our retention of skills is only going to get worse what with these attractive incentives ,the fact young people have good opportunity's in civvy street and the unfortunate fact the RN very rarely sees the "25 year men" as often as it once did hence when a sailor gets trained into a skill now he can easily head into a far better paid job out of service .
The problem the RAN have is that they work hard on long deployments, and have gaps in areas like our own - most Senior Rates etc are last the point of wanting long trips, they want family time. Also the RAN pay is pretty pants and the offer is predicated on you having a pension or other income to make life bearable out there - australia is bloody expensive, and Perth, one of their main bases even more so - and very remote to boot.

Its a great place for a 2yr exchange, but its a lot different to live there and its simply not that appealing an offer to many of those who the RAN need.
 
#46
Guns thanks for picking me up for racism on my earlier deleted post.
You never explained what I said but I presume it's calling the Chinese- rhymes with "dinks" as there was nothing else remotely questionable and even then only if one were a black lesbian PR manager for multi-culturism at the BBC.

Anyhoo, Chippymick, it's not the short-term that I'm talking about mate.
Try and find anything "Not made in China" in Oz and you'll have a massive job on your hands.
Even if it is "Made in 'Straya" it will still be owned by a PRC-owned Chinese consortium or some Singaporean conglomerate or a US corporation.

China "probably" owns 20% of the Aussie guv debt and "appears" to hold $130bn AUD of the $730bn Australian Govt and quasi Govt bonds on the market.
From the Royal Bank of Canada's's analysis: China holds around a third of the $400 billion worth of Commonwealth Government Securities, semi-government bonds and sub-sovereign bonds held offshore.
Chinese ownership of Australian debt higher than thought

This graph will demonstrate the amount of investment Au has had from PRC over the last decade.
Au is 2nd behind the US but you have to remember the Chinese have bought up a lot of US debt too and the US govt needs to sell-out same as the Au pollies.
The Chinese have always thought far into the future (for millenia) and they always, always play the long-game while the majority of our pollies can't see beyond the fat bung every year.


And as for foreign land ownership you'll see NT is down to 65% left to Au and the rest gone to foreign entities.
Every state has sold out to at least 5% to these foreign entities.

In NT they've sold over 30% which comes in at roughly 500m km2 so not a small amount.
The same size as Spain.
How much of Australia’s farmland is owned by foreign companies?
Not all owners will be Chinese, I know, but a vast % will.

On to taxation- More than one-third of the largest public companies and multinational entitiespaid no company tax in Australia in 2013-14.
37.88% comes in at 583 foreign owned companies.
Now that's a lot of money- how on earth could they get away with it??.. I wonder....
Because of bungs and influence- deals to sell off Au to anyone with a big enough cheque book.

Top five by income

Name Total income Taxable income Tax paid
Qantas Airways Limited $15bn $0 $0
Ghp 104 160 689 Pty Ltd $12bn $0 $0
Exxonmobil Australia Pty Ltd $10bn $0 $0
Energyaustralia Holdings Ltd $9bn $52m $0
Lend Lease Corporation Limited $8bn $0 $0

RAF Lakenheath and DG are no different to Pine Gap so we're in agreement there.
As for Whitlam knowing about Pine Gap?

"Whitlam demanded to know if and why the CIA was running a CIA base at Pine Gap near Alice Springs, a giant vacuum cleaner which, as Edward Snowden revealed recently, allows the US to spy on everyone. “Try to screw us or bounce us,” the prime minister warned the US ambassador, “[and Pine Gap] will become a matter of contention”.

Victor Marchetti, the CIA officer who had helped set up Pine Gap, later told me, “This threat to close Pine Gap caused apoplexy in the White House … a kind of Chile [coup] was set in motion.”

By that great Aussie journo: John Pilger.
The British-American coup that ended Australian independence | John Pilger



I'm not against cross-training with foreign units but things are going awry when you're also selling your citizens' country from under them to the same countries you're training with.

Plus legally it's a defence force so why are blokes overseas using US kit to drop US kit on stuff that really poses no threat geographically or strategically to Au?
All this while whilst the "defence" budget goes up- really?

That defeats the whole point in being a defence force doesn't it?

The ADF was formed in 1976 and had no deployments anywhere till 1987 when they went to Fiji during a coup.
More recently came Timor and the Soloman's which are all jobs that make sense as you were peace-keepers and it didn't really involve sucking-up to the septics.

Imagine my surprise when in June 2003 I bumped into a bunch of Aus Air Force wallahs running the air traffic control in Saddam International Airport in Baggers..
That was back in the days when there were just 3 countries involved.
Au just has to be there validating any stunts that the US pull.
Same as Afghan where Op Slipper started in Oct 01.. Some "defence" force.

It's the 2 party state in Straya.
They differ on the little matters but when it comes to the big picture- they're both the same.

5 times since 2010 the PM has changed.
Once through a sham election-granted.
But do you know of anybody that voted for Tony?
I know of 2 and I know of a lot of Aussies.
The last one was voted in by the MPs of his-own party and the public had no say at all..

The system is rotten to the core and it's good to see that many Aussies are starting to wake up that they're being sold down the gurgler, but unfortunately it's far too late.

As for procuring 72 of these turkeys...
Here are all the problems with the F-35 that the Pentagon found in a 2014 report this ?
Are they mad?
Push for inquiry into Australia's $24 billion F-35 Joint Strike Fighter purchase

Hooroo.
 
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#47
Curious as to why? Money or opportunity?
For a culture based on "mate-ship", some of the most formal atmospheres I've ever felt have been in HMA Ships. There has also been a systematic culture of bullying in the RAN for the last 50+ years.

Of the people I know who've transferred across they either are intending to do it for the minimum necessary to allow them to retire out there, or have been recruited for highly specific jobs (amphibious, ASW or Flying experience).

Whilst the headline pay may look great, it terms of relative purchasing power it is roughly equivalent to UK pay.

If I were going to join a Commonwealth Navy it would be the RNZN.
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#48
For a culture based on "mate-ship", some of the most formal atmospheres I've ever felt have been in HMA Ships. There has also been a systematic culture of bullying in the RAN for the last 50+ years.

Of the people I know who've transferred across they either are intending to do it for the minimum necessary to allow them to retire out there, or have been recruited for highly specific jobs (amphibious, ASW or Flying experience).

Whilst the headline pay may look great, it terms of relative purchasing power it is roughly equivalent to UK pay.

If I were going to join a Commonwealth Navy it would be the RNZN.
I'd heard about the pay, but interesting about the culture. I've always imagined them as a bit laid back. Maybe its a deliberate plan to stifle that "mate-ship" in the interests of discipline.
 
T

Tinman74

Guest
#49
For a culture based on "mate-ship", some of the most formal atmospheres I've ever felt have been in HMA Ships. There has also been a systematic culture of bullying in the RAN for the last 50+ years.

Of the people I know who've transferred across they either are intending to do it for the minimum necessary to allow them to retire out there, or have been recruited for highly specific jobs (amphibious, ASW or Flying experience).

Whilst the headline pay may look great, it terms of relative purchasing power it is roughly equivalent to UK pay.

If I were going to join a Commonwealth Navy it would be the RNZN.
Hindsight is a marvellous thing, I had the opportunity to do that, land not Navy.

But being married and with a kid on the way it wasn't a goer. Dead wife and unborn puts it all into perspective.

NZ has marvellous mountains, I've a couple of years left then I'll be popping smoke to there.
 
#52
When your irony/humour start to sound like the dripping of a Sheeps uterus I find it hard to tell the difference.

But hey I only exited airframes for a living!
It is possible that you have had one too many hard landings, however, I shall not hold that against you.
 
#53
I'd heard about the pay, but interesting about the culture. I've always imagined them as a bit laid back. Maybe its a deliberate plan to stifle that "mate-ship" in the interests of discipline.
Read these and be informed...

Submarine Workforce Sustainability Review | Royal Australian Navy

Report on abuse at HMAS Leeuwin | Royal Australian Navy

Allegations of sexual misconduct and bullying sow division among eager navy recruits

Taskforce calls for royal commission into abuse at defence academy
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#54
That one sounds like any term at Dartmouth in the 90s, although there were more of us and a higher proportion of women, so the "small group" syndrome was less. I've seen similar levels of infighting and problems on smaller RN (and civilian) courses.

From memory in late 92 there was a court martial of a male cadet for hitting another male cadet in an arguement over and in front of a women cadet. Times change and different stadards get applied.
 
#56
For a culture based on "mate-ship", some of the most formal atmospheres I've ever felt have been in HMA Ships. There has also been a systematic culture of bullying in the RAN for the last 50+ years.
The RAN does seem to have a bit of a reputation for a poor culture within some of its PQs; picture a 22yr old Maritime Warfare Officer LEUT on a power trip speaking to those below him like sh*t and hiding behind his rank and you soon see why people are unwilling to stay around.
 
#57
The RAN does seem to have a bit of a reputation for a poor culture within some of its PQs; picture a 22yr old Maritime Warfare Officer LEUT on a power trip speaking to those below him like sh*t and hiding behind his rank and you soon see why people are unwilling to stay around.
That is not necessarily a Navy or indeed a military problem. It is a Gen Y problem. The freshly graduated "identify "as experienced and competent.

The clue bat eventually strikes but it just takes a bit longer these days.
 
#58
You've missed the most recent ones:
This gives the Au Navy an amateurish appearance and will do nothing for good PR.
The list of embarrassments goes on and on, day after day.
Sailors sue Australian navy for failing to provide them with trade qualifications
People smuggler payment scandal: Captain asked Australian official for 'help'
This, of course, can't reflect on the rank-and-file (as they were just completing a task) but it should put the senior management under a big magnifying glass (but it won't).

Chippy, from my last post you only picked Pilger as a point of contention(?).
What have you got against Pilger apart from he exposes Govt corruption and meddling and is highly-regarded, globally?
Do you agree with the other points?

Hooroo
 
#59
Its a really great shopping list, but it relies heavily on the Ozzies finding lots of whinging poms and yanks to come and man the kit in the first place. The ADF are an utterly awesome bunch of people, but they rely very heavily on expat 2nd career military coming to live on the pension and bolstering their ranks. They've had major manpower problems with the existing 6 SSK fleet, so god alone knows how they'll find crews for 12.

Good luck - I predict a significant scale back within a few years as it becomes clear how expensive this will be...
If you build them, they will come.
 

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