Aussie nurses raped before being massacred by Japanese

A couple of my pics from the last time I was there. Don't ask me, I didn't try the massage.


View attachment 388769
Good job you didn't, you might have been disappointed.
These notices are quite the norm in Japanese in 5*, mid-range and business hotels (not too dis-similar from spa services now becoming popular in UK hotels)

What you would have got would probably have been a masseuse, usually older, and either male or female turning up to give you a straight-forward massage. It's a popular service both for Japanese and for foreign visitors of either sex. Sometimes for the sake of propriety, they will require the room door to remain ajar.

I'm not saying that 'extra-services' are never available for an extra price- I wouldn't discount it, I simply don't know.
However there is real scope for embarrassment and insult if the guest makes the wrong assumption about the service on offer.
 
Except, as was proven ;on Okinawa, they weren’t absolute fanatics when safe conduct passes were dropped and troops ordered to recognise them.
The Japanese-American Nisei interpreters were often successful in encouraging surrender, often at great risk to themselves.
The American ethos of 'no prisoners' back-fired in a couple of ways.

Firstly, the Japanese weren't daft, they knew that their chances of survival weren't that great after surrendering;
the most dangerous time for them once hors de combat was being escorted to rear echelon, there was a phrase used that was pretty unambiguous; "Take these Japs back to the rear and I need you back here in two minutes"
I think if most of us felt that we were going to be bumped off after surrendering, it would certainly have the effect of stiffening our resistance.

Secondly, it had the effect of denying any chance of prisoner interrogation-the prisoners weren't surviving the trip back, often because a L-of-C soldier wanted to bag a Jap that he wouldn't otherwise get the chance to do.
The CoC had to offer incentives for the safe delivery of prisoners- extra leave was one reward.

I certainly don't condemn the Americans for that-total war should be expected; but I'm no fan of excuses being trotted out for such behaviour.

Fanaticism wasn't universal, I was in Okinawa last year, not specifically because of the war history but I was aware of the history and did visit a couple of visits to memorials. One was to the memorial to the Himeyuri Schoolgirls*. One moving account by a now elderly survivor, terrified of falling into American hands, begged a Japanese soldier, trapped in the caves with them to show her how to use a hand-grenade** to kill herself.
He refused, saying 'You must live"; and she credits him for saving her life.

* If anyone is interested, google will show up a fair bit.
**not that obvious to a 15 year old girl as it might be to us.

The other memorial was this one;

Okinawa Memorial
 
Except, as was proven on Okinawa, they weren’t absolute fanatics when safe conduct passes were dropped and troops ordered to recognise them.
An invasion of the main islands would have been a hideous bloodbath for all concerned.
 
There's plenty in the RADC museum and our Corps history about the Far East and the camps.

The ingenuity of the various Corps members to provide care was quite extraordinary.

However they would have appeared to have had a fair amount of leave to do this with the knowledge of the guards who often sought treatment themselves and would receive it. But at a cost. The guard would be told that x amount of material would be needed for his treatment when in fact that was enough for many treatments, the spare being used on prisoners.
Clove oil was distilled for use in dental fillings when combined with zinc oxide obtained from pharmacies.
Amalgam fillings were made from mercury, again from a pharmacy, combined with silver from filing down coins.
Dentures at that time were vulcanite, a rubber based compound. Whilst they did not have the porcelain teeth to make new dentures, they could repair broken ones.

My bold .. I'm surprised you didn't mention Waterloo teeth

snip "These were expensive as it could take six weeks to make a complete set. They have subsequently become known as 'Waterloo teeth', as some were scavenged from dead soldiers on battlefields.
Others were taken by resurrectionists who dug up corpses, a lucrative business".
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
"Take these Japs back to the rear and I need you back here in two minutes"
I think if most of us felt that we were going to be bumped off after surrendering, it would certainly have the effect of stiffening our resistance.
Begs the question, How did the Japanese still fighting hear of these alleged atrocities? Not from survivors obviously. The majority of these tales are a combination of tall tales told by second echelon troops not involved and propaganda on the enemies side.
I prefer to take most of it with a huge shovel full of salt!
 
The Japanese-American Nisei interpreters were often successful in encouraging surrender, often at great risk to themselves.
The American ethos of 'no prisoners' back-fired in a couple of ways.

Firstly, the Japanese weren't daft, they knew that their chances of survival weren't that great after surrendering;
the most dangerous time for them once hors de combat was being escorted to rear echelon, there was a phrase used that was pretty unambiguous; "Take these Japs back to the rear and I need you back here in two minutes"
I think if most of us felt that we were going to be bumped off after surrendering, it would certainly have the effect of stiffening our resistance.

Secondly, it had the effect of denying any chance of prisoner interrogation-the prisoners weren't surviving the trip back, often because a L-of-C soldier wanted to bag a Jap that he wouldn't otherwise get the chance to do.
The CoC had to offer incentives for the safe delivery of prisoners- extra leave was one reward.

I certainly don't condemn the Americans for that-total war should be expected; but I'm no fan of excuses being trotted out for such behaviour.

Fanaticism wasn't universal, I was in Okinawa last year, not specifically because of the war history but I was aware of the history and did visit a couple of visits to memorials. One was to the memorial to the Himeyuri Schoolgirls*. One moving account by a now elderly survivor, terrified of falling into American hands, begged a Japanese soldier, trapped in the caves with them to show her how to use a hand-grenade** to kill herself.
He refused, saying 'You must live"; and she credits him for saving her life.

* If anyone is interested, google will show up a fair bit.
**not that obvious to a 15 year old girl as it might be to us.

The other memorial was this one;

Okinawa Memorial

In the book Hell in the Pacific, mid war, the lack of Prisoners to interrogate came up.
It was decided by HQ to offer a weeks pass to any GI who turned in a live Japanese.
Apparently the number of successfully surrendering Japanese went through the roof.
 
Begs the question, How did the Japanese still fighting hear of these alleged atrocities? Not from survivors obviously. The majority of these tales are a combination of tall tales told by second echelon troops not involved and propaganda on the enemies side.
I prefer to take most of it with a huge shovel full of salt!
As you wish, but I set store by the report of the US Foreign Moral Analysis Division

Quote
Alexander Leighton, a social scientist heading the US government's Foreign Moral Analysis Division, was charged with the task of investigating ways to convince the ordinary Japanese soldier to lay down his arms. Leighton was convinced that Japanese soldiers could be encouraged to surrender, given the right approach:

The analysts came to the conclusion that the most important single point connected with the obtaining of surrenders was the necessity of convincing Allied troops and local field commanders of the value of prisoners and of training men in the technique of securing them. Without this, surrender propaganda was a waste of time, since it could not overcome the effect of witnessing the fact that men were shot when they tried to give themselves up. Our evidence indicates that this happened time and time again and that many of the desperate hold-outs and banzai charges were based to a significant extent on the conviction that the Americans would not take them prisoner, and that their choice was merely between two kinds of death.


Unquote
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
This is US post battle analysis, most of this will be a set of assumptions formed by or tested against veterans usually US ones. How would dead Japanese who have refused to surrender be interrogated about why? Its basic assumptions and goes unchallenged. remember many folks made careers doing this sort of stuff post war. My point isn't about surrendering in general but the case quoted with no dates or sources saying that japs wouldn't surrender because they somehow knew every jap was murdered. This they knew how? Not from US sources but from their own fight to the death propaganda. Its impossible to prove and hearsay which then becomes myths that are published. The proper way to counteract this propaganda is to turn enemy captives into becoming pro surrender propaganda tools, something that has been tried in every conflict from rock paper scissors!
 
This is US post battle analysis, most of this will be a set of assumptions formed by or tested against veterans usually US ones. How would dead Japanese who have refused to surrender be interrogated about why? Its basic assumptions and goes unchallenged. remember many folks made careers doing this sort of stuff post war. My point isn't about surrendering in general but the case quoted with no dates or sources saying that japs wouldn't surrender because they somehow knew every jap was murdered. This they knew how? Not from US sources but from their own fight to the death propaganda. Its impossible to prove and hearsay which then becomes myths that are published. The proper way to counteract this propaganda is to turn enemy captives into becoming pro surrender propaganda tools, something that has been tried in every conflict from rock paper scissors!

The very close and geographically compact nature of fighting in the Pacific meant someone shooting some men with their hands up was quite Likely to be seen widely by the opposing forces. If one man comes forward with his hands up and is then promptly shot, the other men in the position will take that as a lesson learned. Indeed, there are numerous Japanese accounts that they would send one chap out to try and make a surrender to see if it was possible..
There is plenty of combat footage of Japanese very obviously unarmed or hors de combat being shot. There are many contemporary reports and reminisces that after a fight, going round the battlefield shooting wounded japanese was very much the norm.
 
This is US post battle analysis, most of this will be a set of assumptions formed by or tested against veterans usually US ones. How would dead Japanese who have refused to surrender be interrogated about why? Its basic assumptions and goes unchallenged. remember many folks made careers doing this sort of stuff post war. My point isn't about surrendering in general but the case quoted with no dates or sources saying that japs wouldn't surrender because they somehow knew every jap was murdered. This they knew how? Not from US sources but from their own fight to the death propaganda. Its impossible to prove and hearsay which then becomes myths that are published. The proper way to counteract this propaganda is to turn enemy captives into becoming pro surrender propaganda tools, something that has been tried in every conflict from rock paper scissors!
I suspect that you won't entertain the quite feasible possibility that when Japanese soldiers did start to be interrogated in numbers, they were asked why they didn't surrender earlier.
Or, that given the nature of the terrain, the Japanese defensive positions would often have a better observation on the nearby US forces than they would have of the Americans and if one of their number did test the water by attempting to surrender and they subsequently heard a volley of shots. they would get a likely idea of the fate of the person surrendering.
I don't think you are likely to be swayed by this excerpt from Wikipedia but I'll include it for a wider audience:
Allied forces continued to kill many Japanese personnel who were attempting to surrender throughout the war. It is likely that more Japanese soldiers would have surrendered if they had not believed that they would be killed by the Allies while trying to do so.– Fear of being killed after surrendering was one of the main factors which influenced Japanese troops to fight to the death, and a wartime US Office of Wartime Information report stated that it may have been more important than fear of disgrace and a desire to die for Japan. Instances of Japanese personnel being killed while attempting to surrender are not well documented, though anecdotal accounts provide evidence that this occurred.
Link:
Japanese Prisoners of War

It states that the killing of surrendering Japanese is not well documented, however there are plenty on references to it in autobiographies of the Pacific War and you would have to wonder why so many would lie about it if it wasn't true.
 
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ugly

LE
Moderator
No my point was about the rumoured shooting of already surrendered and disarmed POWs who were being marched to the rear! Not much chance of that being witnessed!
 
No my point was about the rumoured shooting of already surrendered and disarmed POWs who were being marched to the rear! Not much chance of that being witnessed!
Most battles in the Pacific were fought in an area measured in yards, not miles.
 
I suspect that you won't entertain the quite feasible possibility that when Japanese soldiers did start to be interrogated in numbers, they were asked why they didn't surrender earlier.
Or, that given the nature of the terrain, the Japanese defensive positions would often have a better observation on the nearby US forces than they would have of the Americans and if one of their number did test the water by attempting to surrender and they subsequently heard a volley of shots. they would get a likely idea of the fate of the person surrendering.
I don't think you are likely to be swayed by this excerpt from Wikipedia but I'll include it for a wider audience:
Allied forces continued to kill many Japanese personnel who were attempting to surrender throughout the war. It is likely that more Japanese soldiers would have surrendered if they had not believed that they would be killed by the Allies while trying to do so.– Fear of being killed after surrendering was one of the main factors which influenced Japanese troops to fight to the death, and a wartime US Office of Wartime Information report stated that it may have been more important than fear of disgrace and a desire to die for Japan. Instances of Japanese personnel being killed while attempting to surrender are not well documented, though anecdotal accounts provide evidence that this occurred.
Link:
Japanese Prisoners of War

It states that the killing of surrendering Japanese is not well documented, however there are plenty on references to it in autobiographies of the Pacific War and you would have to wonder why so many would lie about it if it wasn't true.
Easy to counter that argument.

I don't trust them, it's probably yet another trick, just kill them and maybe I might get to go home.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Except in the newspapers, if course.

View attachment 389288
The two officers who had a competition with each other (condoned by the Imperial Japanese Army and widely propagandised back home) .

The winner was the man who decapitated the most Chinese prisoners.

Neither made it to a War Crimes tribunal IIRC. ( Cue a loud shout of Kampei ! and more hot sake)

rest in peace Major Hugh Seagrim , George Cross (posthumous) , DSO,OBE

Burma honours self-sacrifice of Hugh Seagrim, ‘Major Longlegs’


LINK

The GC Gazette entry:


Awarded the George Cross for most conspicuous gallantry in carrying out hazardous work in a very brave manner. Major Seagrim was the leader of a party which included two other British and one Karen officer working in the Karen Hills of Burma. By the end of 1943 the Japanese had learned of this party who then commenced a campaign of arrests and torture to determine their whereabouts. In February 1944 the other two British officers were ambushed and killed but Major Seagrim and the Karen officer escaped. The Japanese then arrested 270 Karens and tortured and killed many of them but still they continued to support Major Seagrim. To end further suffering to the Karens, Seagrim surrendered himself to the Japanese on 15th March 1944. He was taken to Rangoon and together with eight others he was sentenced to death. He pleaded that the others were following his orders and as such they should be spared, but they were determined to die with him and were all executed.


Beheaded in Rangoon Jail, age 35.
 
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