Attacker of 97 yr old veteran escapes jail

#41
edited
 
#42
Firehorse said:
JCS, you're taking a position that would result in the exclusion of certain groups from daily interaction with mainstream society. You say he would be receiving help were he not being cared for in the community but mention nothing of the stigma of institutionalisation.

Stigma must be avoided at all costs in a modern civilised society. Far better to expose a child with autism to the behaviour of a child with ADHD in a mainstream school (with the risk of subsequent disruption for all concerned) than give those children help in a special school where there needs may be met, albeit at greater financial cost.

Similarly prison is an expensive option and by not incarcerating those with criminal behaviour we not only save money but also increase their chances of full reintegration as they are not having to live down the humiliation of a custodial sentence.

Any takers for a campaign to free Ian Brady?
Yet surely there must be a line drawn beyond which the interests of society should outweigh the long-term interests of the individual.

He has shown himself to be a danger to himself and to society.

Should society not do its best to protect itself and to protect him from himself?

My personal preference would be for him to be in detention under supervised conditions.

Edit: Wait a minute - were you being sacarstic? :oops:
 
#44
Yet surely there must be a line drawn beyond which the interests of society should outweigh the long-term interests of the individual.

He has shown himself to be a danger to himself and to society.

Should society not do its best to protect itself and to protect him from himself?

My personal preference would be for him to be in detention under supervised conditions.

Edit: Wait a minute - were you being sacarstic? :oops:[/quote]

Just a tad :D

Taking the views of the trendy Rights Brigade to their logical conclusions, and we seem to be edging ever closer to that, the likes of Ian Brady should be at liberty. In the name of egalitarianism vulnerable groups, whether they be mentally ill or have specific learning difficulties or whatever, are not having their needs met (in part due to economic convenience and in part to pander to political correctness) and this is to the detriment of all.

I agree wholeheartedly with JCS, but then I'm not PC. :)
 
#45
Firehorse said:
JCS, you're taking a position that would result in the exclusion of certain groups from daily interaction with mainstream society. You say he would be receiving help were he not being cared for in the community but mention nothing of the stigma of institutionalisation.

Stigma must be avoided at all costs in a modern civilised society.

Similarly prison is an expensive option and by not incarcerating those with criminal behaviour we not only save money but also increase their chances of full reintegration as they are not having to live down the humiliation of a custodial sentence.

Any takers for a campaign to free Ian Brady?
Oh! Come on Firehorse. Who gives twopence about someone's exclusion from society if that person's integration into society gives them the right to kill their fellow citizens?

Stigma of institutionalisation? Most nutters don't even know what you're propounding. I certainly don't......therefore I must be a nutter! :(

ps: must be sarcasm?
 
#46
halomonkey said:
still21inmymind said:
I have emailed the AG and asked that the case be reviewed and a more suitable sentence imposed
S21IMM did you send it to the complaints address or to correspondence unit? Just want to make sure we send to the same person :D
Halo, excuse the delay in replying, I sent to the correspondence address, and recieved a very polite reply within two hours.
 
#48
What a shame we can't somehow identify and praise the two kids who gave chase, and also the victiom, send him our best wishes etc.
 
#49
Vino said:
Moodybitch said:
Vino said:
Many of the comments on the thread about kitten kicking apply here and if I could find Moodybitch we could really get into it.
They don't.

One was an elderly war veteran. The other was a cat.
Moody great to hear from you. I meant in respect to punishments for such individuals. I mean you can't have a problem with some good old flogging here instead of a 'don't be naughty again order'? Surely?
As mentioned earlier, not all the facts are clear in this case. I will wait until they are before commenting if that's okay with you.

You feel free to continue shouting the loudest though, it makes you look like you care the most.
 
#50
#51
RARO_Reject said:
BBC story here with photo from the camera on the tram

Clicky

Even better photo on Sky News

Clicky

I live in Croydon, and this man is well known to the locals and probably the police. He is completely fücking mental, and in any rational and sane society would have been locked up, permanently, long ago.

Sadly he is, practically 'NFC' (Normal for Croydon) and coupled with the completely under-resourced and equally useless Met Police, he will probably be able to carry on as before, until he kills someone, and then finally the system might just realise that they need to keep him away from society for ever.

I note that he was drunk. Croydon has a massive 'Drinking Exclusion Zone' and I beleive the attack happened in the centre of it. Was he drinking in the street? Probably, I would think he's barred from most pubs and I've seen him on the streets with a purple tin in his mit several times. Croydon has become a mecca for drunken and random, unprovoked violence. Any shop that closes, re-opens as a bar shortly after, and there has been an explosion of off licences in the periphery of the town centre

Even if he had been sent down indefinitely to a secure hospital for treatment, it wouldnt be long before he'd be out again. He takes his meds, the delusions/red mist/nuttiness subsides, and he convinces the 'Trick cyclist' that he's okay now, and gets released.

Then he stops taking his meds, and goes violent paranoid tin-foil-hat- wearing berserk again. Then downs six tins of purple nasty to take the edge off. Its only a matter of time before someone gets hurt.

Either lock him up forever, or give him a 9mm lobotomy. He can't be 'cured'
 
#52
What an illuminating example of how our Society as a whole has declined. Other posters have already commented on the crowded tram and bystanders ignoring the incident, but what really gets to me is that a 97 year old (veteran or not), supporting himself on 2 walking sticks had to stand in the first place! I can guarantee that most of the seats in that carriage were occupied by much younger, able bodied individuals, none of who could be bothered to get off their fat ars*s and offer up a seat to an elderly person! :x :x

Having got that off my chest, it is pleasing to see all is not lost - good drills on the part of the 2 youngsters.
 
#54
merchantman said:
What struck me (no pun intended) when reading this in the Telegraph this morning was that a 96 year old man, who needs 2 sticks to walk, was forced to stand on a crowded tram because no one would give up their seat for him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/22/nveteran122.xml
people who give up seats are a dying breed :( I gave up my seat to a pregnant lady on DLR once, looked down and a boy of about 12 was sitting in the seat next to where I had been. i was brought up in the days when offering seat to elderly/pregnant/disabled was the norm - it isn't nowadays. People expect small children to get their own seat, not even to put them on a parent's lap.
 
#55
Poppy said:
[people who give up seats are a dying breed :( I gave up my seat to a pregnant lady on DLR once, looked down and a boy of about 12 was sitting in the seat next to where I had been. i was brought up in the days when offering seat to elderly/pregnant/disabled was the norm - it isn't nowadays. People expect small children to get their own seat, not even to put them on a parent's lap.
I agree people are reluctant to give up their seats these days, I travel in/out of London on crowded commuter trains every day and know that if someone is lucky enough to get a seat they hang onto it but I would like to think, naively perhaps, that most would stand for a 96 year old with 2 walking sticks. Though apparently not in Croydon.
 
#56
merchantman said:
Poppy said:
[people who give up seats are a dying breed :( I gave up my seat to a pregnant lady on DLR once, looked down and a boy of about 12 was sitting in the seat next to where I had been. i was brought up in the days when offering seat to elderly/pregnant/disabled was the norm - it isn't nowadays. People expect small children to get their own seat, not even to put them on a parent's lap.
I agree people are reluctant to give up their seats these days, I travel in/out of London on crowded commuter trains every day and know that if someone is lucky enough to get a seat they hang onto it but I would like to think, naively perhaps, that most would stand for a 96 year old with 2 walking sticks. Though apparently not in Croydon.
It isn't just giving up seats. Around this area it is common to see doors to public transport get crowded by people trying to get on before others have got off. Lots of places are litter strewn even if bins are around etc. This man is an extreme case and I wonder what is going through a persons mind who is fit and healthy, occupying a seat and watching this bloke struggle.

The guy who punched him is seemingly known to have mental health problems. He shouldn't be out in public. Good old "care in the community" what community?

The story is pretty much a indication of the way society has changed in my lifetime. On the plus side good on the 2 who followed the perpetrator reported the assualt and gave evidence. It would also appear that the driver and some passengers assisted the man after the atack. But what was the judge thinking by making a statement that the public would not be best served by locking up the criminal? That, I can't fathom.
 
#57
Garbage posts removed yet again.

This is symptomatic of a wider problem regarding the issue of the mentally unstable interacting with the greater community and the hazards therein.

It is a not a hobby horse for the some of the usual idiot mutterings that seem to crop up in these threads.

There is some good work down so far by still21 and others to get more clarity on this case.

To the usual suspects, the agenda-monkeys and the gutter-mouthed sheep.

If you can't contribute worth a damn at this end of Arrse, either don't bother or I'll make the choice for you.
 
#58
There seems to be a lot of criticism about no-one intervening to help this poor pensioner. I totally agree however, how many cases have there been in recent months when someone has intervened to stop some scumbag / chav / twat and got HIMSELF arrested and found HIMSELF in court for assault; and you wonder why people are less inclined to get involved.

I truly sympathise that this pensioner did not get justice, but it is a reflection of the dumming down of society and the namby pamby attitude of an out-of-touch government and out-of-touch judiciary. Too much for the PC brigade and not enough for the honest decent decreasing minority like you and I

Ill get my coat
 
#59
PartTimePongo said:
Garbage posts removed yet again.

This is symptomatic of a wider problem regarding the issue of the mentally unstable interacting with the greater community and the hazards therein.

It is a not a hobby horse for the some of the usual idiot mutterings that seem to crop up in these threads.

There is some good work down so far by still21 and others to get more clarity on this case.

To the usual suspects, the agenda-monkeys and the gutter-mouthed sheep.

If you can't contribute worth a damn at this end of Arrse, either don't bother or I'll make the choice for you.

....so mentioning that he could be an "asylum seeker" is a joke too far?


How about? Dialogue from Braveheart:

Scotsman: “ You’re mad!”

Irishman: “I see I’ve come to the right place then!”
 
#60
To be fair to the other passengers, they didn't have time to intervene, it was a single punch that nobody could have expected.

I know why so many thugs are getting away with things like this.... dopey old judges can't comprehend why anyone would do something like this, therefore the perpetrators must be ill in some way.

In their fluffy liberal world, the fact that some people are simply evil seems to escape them.
 

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