Atlantic Future Forum - and NATO/Euro Atlantic defence

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
@jrwlynch can probably give you chapter and verse on this, but I assumed that the SSKs would have operated in places such as the GIUK gap and the Norwegian Sea, and the far out into the Atlantic coordinated ASW would have been done by SSNs.

Fascinating! SSN's were only operating in the Atlantic and the O boats only operated up north?
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
Who used the term 'only'?


'but I assumed that the SSKs would have operated in places such as the GIUK gap and the Norwegian Sea, and the far out into the Atlantic coordinated ASW would have been done by SSNs.'

And you are wrong
 

Yokel

LE
'but I assumed that the SSKs would have operated in places such as the GIUK gap and the Norwegian Sea, and the far out into the Atlantic coordinated ASW would have been done by SSNs.'

And you are wrong

Never did I say that any of those things would be done exclusively. The SSK did not have the speed of a nuclear boat.
 

Yokel

LE
@PhotEx will not like this:

Navy Creates New Atlantic Destroyer Task Group to Hunt Russian Submarines

The Navy has created a new task group on the East Coast to ensure it has ready destroyers that can deploy on short notice to counter the Russian submarine threat in the Atlantic Ocean.

Task Group Greyhound – which officially declared initial operational capability on Sept. 1 – is a force-generation model for destroyers that is embedded within the Navy’s Optimized Fleet Response Plan.

The plan is to take destroyers that have recently completed deployments and are awaiting maintenance availabilities and make them ready for training and operations in the Atlantic.

Greyhound is “designed to provide the fleet with predictable, continuously ready and fully certified warships,” Rear Adm. Brendan McLane, the commander of Naval Surface Force Atlantic, said in a Monday ceremony aboard USS Thomas Hudner (DDG-116) in Mayport, Fla.

“The ships will be ready to accomplish the full range of missions – including tracking Russian undersea activity in the Atlantic and maritime homeland defense for our nation.”

The task force shares a name with the 2020 surface warfare movie “Greyhound,” in which a collection of allied destroyers defend a North Atlantic convoy from German U-boats.
 
Sounds like an interesting Command . . . with an indeterminate number of ships - in dock and awaiting maintenance - in anticipation of something that may/may not, actually happen . . . ?!

"The Navy has created a new task group on the East Coast to ensure it has ready destroyers that can deploy on short notice to counter the Russian submarine threat in the Atlantic Ocean.

Task Group Greyhound – which officially declared initial operational capability on Sept. 1 – is a force-generation model for destroyers that is embedded within the Navy’s Optimized Fleet Response Plan.

The plan is to take destroyers that have recently completed deployments and are awaiting maintenance availabilities and make them ready for training and operations in the Atlantic".


 

Yokel

LE


Now who was it who said that there was no Russian activity in the Atlantic?
 
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Yokel

LE
Sounds like an interesting Command . . . with an indeterminate number of ships - in dock and awaiting maintenance - in anticipation of something that may/may not, actually happen . . . ?!

"The Navy has created a new task group on the East Coast to ensure it has ready destroyers that can deploy on short notice to counter the Russian submarine threat in the Atlantic Ocean.

Task Group Greyhound – which officially declared initial operational capability on Sept. 1 – is a force-generation model for destroyers that is embedded within the Navy’s Optimized Fleet Response Plan.

The plan is to take destroyers that have recently completed deployments and are awaiting maintenance availabilities and make them ready for training and operations in the Atlantic".



To me it sounds a bit like an existing RN organisation that deals with urgent tasks in UK waters or near the UK, and does this by tasking ships that are available. Google 'CTF 320'.

My Google search found public documents, so there is nothing secret here.
 
Some interesting political messaging to keep NATO's gaze firmly fixed to the East, despite many Mediterranean members more worried about instability caused by mass migration from the south. Also potential to play NATO (thanks USA) against the evil EU by some members who are on the naughty step.

'Poland hopes that a bolstered cooperation between the European Union and NATO, combined with the alliance’s further enlargement, could spur a more robust approach to Moscow, according to senior Polish defense officials.

'Speaking at the the Warsaw Security Forum, an event organized by the Casimir Pulaski Foundation think tank, Polish President Andrzej Duda said Oct. 5 that closer ties between NATO and the EU are required to combat Russia’s military-driven expansionism. “We need a strong partnership between NATO and the European Union that ensures a synergy of both organizations,” Duda said. “Russia is expanding its military presence and it endangers NATO not only from the east, but also from the north and south.” Duda said the EU’s Strategic Compass, a strategy under development that is to define the bloc’s security and defense policies, should be in harmony with the policies of NATO’s Strategic Concept document.

'The president’s remarks were echoed in the speech by Paweł Soloch, the head of Poland’s National Security Bureau. “There is an ongoing development of the military potential of the Russian Federation. On our part, this creates a need for a further adaptation of NATO’s capacities, also with the use of the instruments held by the European Union,” Soloch said. “Naturally, NATO has a significantly larger potential than Russia, but on the alliance’s borders, the forces accumulated by Russia give a tactical, and, for a defined time, also an operational advantage to this country.” With this in mind, Europe “needs to have a single strategy that merges the potential of NATO and the European Union,” he said.

'Speaking in the presence of Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba, who also took part in the forum, Soloch said that “NATO and the European Union must remain open for new members.” In 2017, Ukraine’s parliament passed legislation that reinstated NATO membership as the country’s strategic foreign and security policy objective. The move came about three years after Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed the country’s Crimean peninsula in a move designed to harm Kiev’s western ambitions. “The entire Russian policy on NATO is based on an assumption that NATO’s presence itself is a provocation. Whatever we do will be viewed by Russia as a provocation. So they only question is: will you do something, or will you not?” Kuleba said.

'Meanwhile, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said during a visit to Washington on Oct. 5 that he had discussed options for enhanced support to Ukraine with US President Joe Biden. With actual membership still some time in the future, alliance members could do more bolster the Ukraine’s aspirations in the fields of security-sector reform and anti-corruption, for example, Stoltenberg said.'


Poland calls for enhanced EU-NATO cooperation amid Russian buildup

'NATO should support not only the territorial integrity of Ukraine and Georgia but also the two countries' desire to join the alliance, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu has said. According to an Ukrinform correspondent, he said this at the Warsaw Security Forum on 05 Oct., October 5.

"Of course, we need to continue to support the two Black Sea countries - Ukraine and Georgia. We should support not only their territorial integrity. We should also support them, strengthen their capabilities, including in terms of better relations with NATO, including their aspirations. We are well aware of these aspirations. Poland and Turkey are, unfortunately, only the few NATO allies that raise this issue at every ministerial meeting and every summit," Cavusoglu said.

'Separately, in his speech, the Turkish foreign minister recalled that Crimea is Ukrainian. "We do not and will not recognize the illegal annexation of Crimea. And I reiterated this commitment, in particular, at the Crimea Platform," Cavusoglu said. He stressed that the Black Sea region is one of the key regions for Euro-Atlantic security, and therefore the military expansion of forces in the Black Sea region needs constant attention from NATO.'


Turkish foreign minister calls for supporting Ukraine's, Georgia's aspirations to join NATO
 

Yokel

LE
SUCEUR described the threat to NATO as 'the three R's' in an interview not so many years ago - that is Russians, Radicals (ie terrorists and terrorist like states), and Refugees (amongst whom terrorists might hide). Was he wrong?

At least the flagship of the NATO Response Force will be ready:

 

Yokel

LE
Whilst looking on another forum I stumbled upon this.

Fundamental factors influencing British defence policies:

The Atlantic is a famously stormy ocean, and so are most of its subsidiary seas. These waters both directly link the UK to, and insulate (not isolate) it from, a huge swathe of the world. The Atlantic and North Sea also give access to the Baltic and Mediterranean and their littoral countries, as well as to the Arctic Ocean and its littoral countries (which include Russia).

The Atlantic also gives access, directly and indirectly, to the other great oceans of the world. In nautical terms, Argentina, Canada, Russia and South Africa, and every country in between, are neighbours of Britain.


I just fail to understand those who insist that it is of no importance to Britain. Not sure if I have posted this before.
 
(...) The Atlantic also gives access, directly and indirectly, to the other great oceans of the world. In nautical terms, Argentina, Canada, Russia and South Africa, and every country in between, are neighbours of Britain.

I just fail to understand those who insist that it is of no importance to Britain. Not sure if I have posted this before.
You might find interesting as a geographical tit bit the fact that Canada is closer to the UK than the far side of the EU is. So the Atlantic is not so unimaginably broad after all.
 

Yokel

LE
You might find interesting as a geographical tit bit the fact that Canada is closer to the UK than the far side of the EU is. So the Atlantic is not so unimaginably broad after all.

It is not wide at all, but politicians may seek to pretend that it is, and hostile forces have sought to make it wide an impossible to cross. As the article notes, all shipping and aircraft to and from the UK, pass through it.

Meanwhile, here is a NATO related article: NAVIGATING A SEA OF CHALLENGES: A NEW APPROACH FOR NATO IN THE EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN
 

Yokel

LE
From The Times a few days ago: NATO ejects Russians over espionage

NATO has halved the size of Russia’s mission to the alliance in response to suspected malign activities such as espionage and killings in member states.

An official said the alliance had withdrawn the accreditation of eight members of the Russian mission, all of whom were “undeclared Russian intelligence officers”. A further two vacant posts will also be scrapped, reducing the size of the Russian mission from 20 to 10.

In the aftermath of the 2018 poisonings in Salisbury, the size of the Russian mission was reduced from 30 to 20 as part of a mass expulsion of spies across allied nations — the only other time NATO has taken such collective action against Moscow.

The official said the decision was “based on intelligence” on which they would not comment. However, it comes after allegations made in April about suspected Russian involvement in an explosion at an ammunition depot in the Czech Republic in 2014 that killed two people.

The decision will take effect at the end of the month. “We have strengthened our deterrence and defence in response to Russia’s aggressive actions, while at the same time we remain open for a meaningful dialogue,” the NATO official said.
 

Yokel

LE
Security is not a dirty word - Navy nuclear engineer charged with trying to pass secrets

WASHINGTON (AP) — A Navy nuclear engineer with access to military secrets has been charged with trying to pass information about the design of American nuclear-powered submarines to someone he thought was a representative of a foreign government but who turned out to be an undercover FBI agent, the Justice Department said Sunday.

In a criminal complaint detailing espionage-related charges against Jonathan Toebbe, the government said he sold information for nearly the past year to a contact he believed represented a foreign power. That country was not named in the court documents.

Toebbe, 42, was arrested in West Virginia on Saturday along with his wife, Diana, 45, after he had placed a removable memory card at a prearranged “dead drop” in the state, according to the Justice Department.

It wasn’t immediately clear whether the Toebbes, who are from Annapolis, Maryland, have lawyers. The Navy declined to comment Sunday.

The FBI says the scheme began in April 2020 when Jonathan Toebbe sent a package of Navy documents to a foreign government and wrote that he was interested in selling to that country operations manuals, performance reports and other sensitive information.

Authorities say he also provided instructions for how to conduct the furtive relationship, with a letter that said: “I apologize for this poor translation into your language. Please forward this letter to your military intelligence agency. I believe this information will be of great value to your nation. This is not a hoax.”
 
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Yokel

LE
Now who was it that claimed Russia could not build submarines? Anyone?

Naval Today - Russian Navy welcomes newest Project 636.3 submarine

The vessel measures 74 meters in length, and Its maximum operating depth is 300 meters, while the maximum range is 7,500 miles.

Improved Kilo-class submarines are armed with 18 torpedoes and eight surface-to-air missiles. The vessels can accommodate a crew of 52 submariners and can stay at sea for 45 days.

They displace 4,000 tonnes when submerged and reach speeds of “over 17 knots”, according the Russian Navy. The submarines are also equipped with Kalibr-cruise missiles which are fitted on Russian nuclear-powered Oscar-class submarines.


Designed for Atlantic/Mediterranean missions per chance?
 

Yokel

LE
USNI News: Defense Chief: U.K. Needs to Develop ‘Capability and Deterrence’ in the High North

Keeping the Atlantic open so European allies can remain in the loop with the United States and Canada during a crisis has “always been the case in NATO military strategy” and remains so today, the chief of the United Kingdom’s defense staff said Tuesday.

Gen. Sir Nicholas Carter said that even in this “era of consistent competition” with authoritarian powers like Russia and China, London looks first to the challenges coming from Moscow in assessing threats.

Speaking at a Center for New American Security forum, he said the Kremlin’s advances in submarine technologies and deep undersea capabilities in its Northern Fleet means “you are right to focus on the maritime” from the North Atlantic to the Arctic as a major security concern for allies and partners like Sweden and Finland.

Seeing this as a new threat, Carter said “we need to be thinking hard about … capability and deterrence” in the High North, especially where operating conditions are difficult.
 

Yokel

LE
In the Mediterranean...

30 live interceptions of armed Russian jets during carrier group aircraft operations in the Mediterranean

On 12th June two F-35 Jets flying from HMS Queen Elizabeth took off to conduct missions against Daesh in Syria and Iraq. This was the first strike mission from a Royal Navy vessel since the operations in Libya during 2011. In a two-week period, there were 30 live intercepts of armed Russian fighter and bomber aircraft. Sukhois and Migs came within visual range of aircraft flying from the ship. Moorhouse added that two jets were held at readiness on deck during this period, ready to respond to any Russian air incursions or overlights. The critical importance for the fleet to have its own organic air cover available for all kinds of naval operations is often overlooked as the main focus is on the strike element of carrier capability.

In the underwater domain, the Commodore noted that the carrier-based Merlin Mk2 ASW helicopters worked with his frigates (and probably with supporting SSN, HMS Ambush) to “locate and fix the Russian submarines deployed to welcome us”.
 

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