Atlantic Future Forum - and NATO/Euro Atlantic defence

Yokel

LE
Look - someone else who forgot to consult PhotEx - Russia is Top Military Threat to U.S. Homeland, Air Force General Says

Russia, with its array of hard-to-detect cruise missiles and advanced submarines, poses the primary military threat to the American homeland today, the commander of U.S. Northern Command said Tuesday.

“They’ve developed capabilities that didn’t exist 20 years ago …very low radar cross-section cruise missiles [and] submarines on par with our submarines,” Air Force Gen. Glen VanHerck said.

Speaking at a Center for Strategic and International Studies online forum, he described the crucial difference between cruise and ballistic missile threats. Cruise missiles “can be launched from multiple platforms, from air-launch capabilities to sea-launch capabilities to submarine-launch capabilities to a container on a commercial vessel. There are multiple ways to do that.”

@oscar1whisky - is this thread of interest? I have quoted the above comments by the commander of NORTHCOM, and earlier in the thread I have quoted the commander of the US Second Fleet on earlier pages. NATO has set up a new command at Norfolk (Virginia) to counter threats in the Atlantic area. NATO has restarted doing transatlantic reinforcement exercises - starting this year with Steadfast Defender 21.
 
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Yokel

LE
1945: Are China And Russia Trying To Attack The Law Of The Sea?

And three, you get the sense that coastal states, chiefly China and its sidekick Russia, are hardening their positions on marine sovereignty. They covet sovereignty in its purest form, connoting a monopoly of force not just within land borders but on the nautical chart. Beijing and Moscow seem to want to repeal the right of innocent passage, making themselves as completely sovereign at sea as they are on dry earth. This bespeaks a continental mindset. After all, there is no right to cross a sovereign state’s terrestrial frontiers without permission. Law enforcement or the armed forces may apprehend or repel those who try.

That seems to be the principle China and Russia want to implant in their briny environs. Earlier this summer Moscow claimed to have fired warning shots at the British destroyer HMS Defender in the Black Sea, when Defender made an innocent passage off the Crimean coast. It also vowed to attack foreign warships that passed close by in the future. The language deployed by the Russian Ministry of Defense was telling: the ministry stated that Defender “violated the Russian national border today,” and thus exposed itself to counterforce.

No. Innocent passage is not invasion. The territorial sea’s outer limit is not a national border. It is fungible in a way land frontiers are not. It denotes a narrow belt of sea where the coastal state may do many things it does on land. But not all. The law of the sea codifies foreigners’ right of way through the territorial sea provided they comply with the law of the sea. That prerogative seems to be what ambitious continental powers that front on the sea want to proscribe.

Whether Moscow and Beijing are mounting a concerted attack on the law of the sea or acting individually and opportunistically in Eurasia’s peripheral seas, I have no idea. But they are acting.
 

Yokel

LE
Iranians in the Atlantic?

Iranian Navy Flotilla Wraps up Four-Month Atlantic Deployment, Pledges More International Operations

The two-ship Iranian Navy group that stalked the West Coast of Africa and the Baltic Sea this summer has returned home, as leaders in Tehran pledge more international naval operations.

Iran’s largest warship, IRINS Makran, and frigate IRINS Sahand returned this week after leaving the Middle East in May for a highly publicized trip that culminated in the ships participating in a fleet review in the Baltic Sea, according to state-controlled Tasnim News Service.

Iranian Navy Rear Admiral Shahram Irani said, “the Iranian Navy will continue to maintain its ‘determining presence in the oceans’ and will strengthen its international interactions,” according to Tasnim.

“Describing Iran as the only country that ensures its maritime security single-handedly, the admiral said the Iranian flotilla completed the mission without receiving help from any country. The Iranian warships did not need to make any port call to fulfill even the technical needs, he added.”
 

Yokel

LE
Why not? Is the Atlantic not international waters or do you believe it belongs to 'us' whoever 'us' is?

Of course it is - but so is the Strait of Hormuz!

My point was that the Atlantic is an important route for trade as well as being important from a security point of view, and that a single vessel attacking shipping would cause massive disruption.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
Iranians in the Atlantic?

Iranian Navy Flotilla Wraps up Four-Month Atlantic Deployment, Pledges More International Operations

The two-ship Iranian Navy group that stalked the West Coast of Africa and the Baltic Sea this summer has returned home, as leaders in Tehran pledge more international naval operations.

Iran’s largest warship, IRINS Makran, and frigate IRINS Sahand returned this week after leaving the Middle East in May for a highly publicized trip that culminated in the ships participating in a fleet review in the Baltic Sea, according to state-controlled Tasnim News Service.

Iranian Navy Rear Admiral Shahram Irani said, “the Iranian Navy will continue to maintain its ‘determining presence in the oceans’ and will strengthen its international interactions,” according to Tasnim.

“Describing Iran as the only country that ensures its maritime security single-handedly, the admiral said the Iranian flotilla completed the mission without receiving help from any country. The Iranian warships did not need to make any port call to fulfill even the technical needs, he added.”

And this is new?
young @endure will remember our Iranian flagged tankers back in the day.
 

Yokel

LE
And this is new?
young @endure will remember our Iranian flagged tankers back in the day.

Was that before or after the 1979 revolution?

Being able to operate warships in the Atlantic, without needing a port, is significant. Both the Iranian vessels carried helicopters capable of carrying anti ship missiles. If they can support a frigate in the Atlantic, then what about one of their Kilo class SSKs?

Now that would cause some concern.
 
Was that before or after the 1979 revolution?

Being able to operate warships in the Atlantic, without needing a port, is significant. Both the Iranian vessels carried helicopters capable of carrying anti ship missiles. If they can support a frigate in the Atlantic, then what about one of their Kilo class SSKs?

Now that would cause some concern.
Were in the Atlantic, though, or just passing through the Channel en route to St Petersburg?
 

Yokel

LE
Were in the Atlantic, though, or just passing through the Channel en route to St Petersburg?

I am not sure if anyone had a handle on where the Iranian ships were at all times.

That is the point, sort of. If you are having a spat with the Tehran leadership, and you know that there is an hostile submarine somewhere West of Gibraltar, are you really going to sail a merchantman full of military equipment across/via the Atlantic without taking ASW precautions?
 
I am not sure if anyone had a handle on where the Iranian ships were at all times.

That is the point, sort of. If you are having a spat with the Tehran leadership, and you know that there is an hostile submarine somewhere West of Gibraltar, are you really going to sail a merchantman full of military equipment across/via the Atlantic without taking ASW precautions?
If NATO knows there's a hostile Iranian sub in the Atlantic at a time there's a need to send lots of military equipment by sea, I'd suggest that that hostile Iranian sub is in for a busy, exciting, but short voyage.
 

Yokel

LE
If NATO knows there's a hostile Iranian sub in the Atlantic at a time there's a need to send lots of military equipment by sea, I'd suggest that that hostile Iranian sub is in for a busy, exciting, but short voyage.

it would also mean that ASW measures would need to be taken throughout the theatre. What happens in a crisis that has not yet turned into conflict?
 
it would also mean that ASW measures would need to be taken throughout the theatre. What happens in a crisis that has not yet turned into conflict?
Assuming this hostile Iranian sub is trying to hide, it's unlikely to be in constant comms with its base, so could be sunk with relative impunity? A vessel lost at sea, rather than by hostilities?
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
it would also mean that ASW measures would need to be taken throughout the theatre. What happens in a crisis that has not yet turned into conflict?

You get an SSN to tail it with orders to sink it If it misbehaves.
 

Yokel

LE
You get an SSN to tail it with orders to sink it If it misbehaves.

In other words, it forces you to take the precaution of deploying a valuable SSN - and quite possibly other assets? What would they be willing to lose an SSK for? An LPD? A Ro Ro full of armoured vehicles?
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
In other words, it forces you to take the precaution of deploying a valuable SSN - and quite possibly other assets? What would they be willing to lose an SSK for? An LPD? A Ro Ro full of armoured vehicles?

Thats an SSN who’s primary role is sinking other submarines?
 

Yokel

LE
Thats an SSN who’s primary role is sinking other submarines?

Are you admitting that NATO needs to maintain submarines and ASW forces (and AAW etc) forces in the Atlantic to protect the SLOCs?
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
Are you admitting that NATO needs to maintain submarines and ASW forces (and AAW etc) forces in the Atlantic to protect the SLOCs?

Oh you mean the submarines that exist purely to attack other submarines 24/7/365 around the globe?
Hint: If 'protecting SLOCS' in the Atlantic was the prime directive, SSK's would be quite adequate… but hey ho, its a global reach we go… See ARA Belgrano
 

Yokel

LE
Oh you mean the submarines that exist purely to attack other submarines 24/7/365 around the globe?
Hint: If 'protecting SLOCS' in the Atlantic was the prime directive, SSK's would be quite adequate… but hey ho, its a global reach we go… See ARA Belgrano

@jrwlynch can probably give you chapter and verse on this, but I assumed that the SSKs would have operated in places such as the GIUK gap and the Norwegian Sea, and the far out into the Atlantic coordinated ASW would have been done by SSNs.

Does 'around the globe' include the Atlantic and Mediterranean?

Prime Directive? Que? Been watching Star Trek?
 

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