Atlantic Future Forum - and NATO/Euro Atlantic defence

Yokel

LE

HMS Trent (OPV) to be Gibraltar based
One Bay class LSD(A) to be turned into a Littoral Support Ship
Hunt and Sandown classes withdrawn slowly
Possibly more F-35Bs
Two Type 23s to go - presumably this means Monmouth (has been languishing and waiting for refit - and an FTRS skeleton crew) and one of the older non 2087/Merlin ones
20 frigates and destroyers by the end of the decade - does that mean running on other T23s longer to achieve the 24 the Prime Minister spoke of last week, which has slipped to 'early in the next decade'?

NATO commitments continue, with Russia named as the main hostile state threat. Continued commitments to CASD and carrier operations.
 
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Yokel

LE
NATO first!

This is an important opportunity for NATO allies to gather together and discuss the value of our alliance in a world where democracies are under threat from authoritarian powers and non-state actors who use cyber threats and malicious new technology to sabotage the rules-based order.

The UK, as a leading defence and diplomatic power, fully backs NATO as a strong military deterrent to the threats from Russia but also as a strong, united, political bulwark against Moscow’s de-stabilising activities.


Rt Hon Dominic Raab MP, quoted on the FCDO website.
 
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PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
NATO first!

This is an important opportunity for NATO allies to gather together and discuss the value of our alliance in a world where democracies are under threat from authoritarian powers and non-state actors who use cyber threats and malicious new technology to sabotage the rules-based order.

The UK, as a leading defence and diplomatic power, fully backs NATO as a strong military deterrent to the threats from Russia but also as a strong, united, political bulwark against Moscow’s de-stabilising activities.


Rt Hon Dominic Raab MP, quoted on the FCDO website.


'unwavering support for NATO' is not 'NATO first'.
 

Yokel

LE
You really are a tiresome bore. Surely last week's paper said that Global Britain depends on security in the Euro Atlantic region - which is 'NATO first' in different words. Did you miss that bit?

Next you will be saying that the First Sea Lord did not say:

We’re going to use them [the carriers] in NATO and around the world to protect our allies, our interests and our trade.
 
You really are a tiresome bore. Surely last week's paper said that Global Britain depends on security in the Euro Atlantic region - which is 'NATO first' in different words. Did you miss that bit?

Next you will be saying that the First Sea Lord did not say:

We’re going to use them [the carriers] in NATO and around the world to protect our allies, our interests and our trade.
He also said Challenger would be scrapped (or be upgraded with an auto loader - depending on thread) that the RN was losing all its wildcats, The RAF was getting SF Hercs and that the Army would be gutted. Other than the already known about since about 2015 cuts in C2 numbers and the loss of Warrior without replacement (at this time) Land didnt fair too badly -

Its perhaps best to file Photex proclomations under B1N
 

Yokel

LE
Arguing with PhotEx reminds me of that time as an eleven year old when I was frustrated with a classmate for arguing that a yellow Bunsen flame is hotter than a blue one because "it is redder". Same kid, several years later, concluded that a student found dead must be Irish, because he was studying English.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
You really are a tiresome bore. Surely last week's paper said that Global Britain depends on security in the Euro Atlantic region - which is 'NATO first' in different words. Did you miss that bit?

Next you will be saying that the First Sea Lord did not say:

We’re going to use them [the carriers] in NATO and around the world to protect our allies, our interests and our trade.

except First never said ‘NATO first’ - I listened to him carefully, very carefully yesterday.
You need to get with the programme - it’s Global Navy now.

nope, not once, no extra helcopters to hunt down the Phantom Red Oktober menace, no Carrier Strike Groups to the High Arctic to put Vlad the Bads tiny green water Navy in his place, no major and sustained carrier based ASW effort in the Mid Atlantic, but lots, and lots, and lots of stuff to the Gulf, Africa and a major and permanent forward deployed presence of booties and ships in the Indo Pacific region, and lots of wizzy jets.
The futures bright, and its fun in the sun once more - with lots of engagement and basing with new and old allies East of Suez. Break out the tropical rig!
 
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Yokel

LE
The Prime Minister and the policy document said it. Something about Global Britain depending on Euro Atlantic security. NATO has kept the peace for decades.



The United Kingdom is a Euro Atlantic nation. I personally like the term 'Euro Atlantic' as an alternative to 'European' as a regional term.
 

Yokel

LE
If the Suez Canal remains closed for a prolonged period, then marine traffic will have to go around Africa and the Cape of Good Hope. Are there any African regimes that are proxies of Moscow and/or Beijing? Are the Iranians present in Africa? What about terrorism in Mozambique?

In Soviet days Bear aircraft were based in Angola. I have no idea if that has restarted.
 
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Yokel

LE
We will also have more assets to deal with NATO tasking - or indeed tasking anywhere in the World:



100% of merchant vessels heading to the UK or Northern Europe pass through the NATO areas.
 

Yokel

LE
NATO Foreign Ministers discuss Russia - UK Defence Journal

“While our relationship with Russia remains very difficult, our meeting today demonstrates strong agreement among Allies and with our partners. Despite years of pressure and efforts to engage in a meaningful dialogue, Russia has increased its pattern of repressive behaviour at home and aggressive behaviour abroad. In Russia, we still see violent oppression of political dissent.

And we call for the immediate release of Alexei Navalny and other peaceful demonstrators who have been arrested. Abroad, Russia undermines and destabilizes its neighbours, including Ukraine, Georgia, and the Republic of Moldova. It supports the crackdown on Belarus, and tries to interfere in the Western Balkans region.

Russia continues its wide-ranging military build-up. From the Baltic to the Black Sea. In the Middle East and North Africa. And from the Mediterranean to the Arctic. Allies have called out Russia’s disinformation and propaganda.”
 
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endure

GCM
Here is another reason that cutting frigate numbers would be a bad thing:



More drugs intercepted at sea means less money going into the coffers of terrorists. Story of the bust by HMS Montrose on the RN website here.
Where were these ships when the intercept took place? Where they on the high seas? Were they in territorial waters?

What legal rights did HMS Montrose have to intercept and board the dhow?
 

Yokel

LE
Where were these ships when the intercept took place? Where they on the high seas? Were they in territorial waters?

What legal rights did HMS Montrose have to intercept and board the dhow?

International waters I expect. Operations like that are normally done with the authority of UN Security Council resolutions although a vessel can be legally boarded with the permission of the government of the flag state.

I am pretty certain that lawyers are involved in decision making pre boarding.
 
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PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
Here is another reason that cutting frigate numbers would be a bad thing:



More drugs intercepted at sea means less money going into the coffers of terrorists. Story of the bust by HMS Montrose on the RN website here.

or a very good argument why more much cheaper and smaller crewed OPVs are an even better thing.
 

Yokel

LE
or a very good argument why more much cheaper and smaller crewed OPVs are an even better thing.

A valid point, but would the OPV be able to escort shipping through the Strait of Hornuz and deal with possible surface, submarine, air, and missile threats, and embark a helicopter?

I refer you to the events of July 2019 and IRIN and IRGCN capabilities. Tehran is an ally of Xi and Putin.
 
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Yokel

LE
I wonder if they are planning to attacks German SSKs to a NATO task group led by one of our carriers?

German Sub navigation system Russian controlled

German media has reported that the Russian controlled ‘Navi-Sailor 4100’ has been installed on at least 100 vessels operated by Germany’s military, including the submarine fleet.

Bild reports here that in 2005, under Federal Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, around one hundred vehicles, including aval platforms, were equipped with new navigation systems from Russian company Transas.

“Even later, the government decided in favor of Transas and, according to BILD am SONNTAG information, installed the ‘Navi Sailor 4100’ (navigation device for position, speed, route) in modern German submarines”, said the report.


Does this mean Vlad will be able to download records of where NATO has been operating?

@jrwlynch
 

endure

GCM
I wonder if they are planning to attacks German SSKs to a NATO task group led by one of our carriers?

German Sub navigation system Russian controlled

German media has reported that the Russian controlled ‘Navi-Sailor 4100’ has been installed on at least 100 vessels operated by Germany’s military, including the submarine fleet.

Bild reports here that in 2005, under Federal Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, around one hundred vehicles, including aval platforms, were equipped with new navigation systems from Russian company Transas.

“Even later, the government decided in favor of Transas and, according to BILD am SONNTAG information, installed the ‘Navi Sailor 4100’ (navigation device for position, speed, route) in modern German submarines”, said the report.


Does this mean Vlad will be able to download records of where NATO has been operating?

@jrwlynch

"It should be noted that despite attempting to seek a massive conspiracy, the company that holds Transas is owned by Wartsila, a Finnish company. "


 

Yokel

LE
Yes but where is the software written and who maintains it? How private is a private company in Russia anyway - one that could have access to all sorts of data of interest to Vlad and his goons?

Remember the alarm when the companies who provide fitness trackers printed maps showing people running around sensitive places like military places? The Kremlin might be very interested to know there the Bundesmarine and NATO allies are operating....
 

Yokel

LE
The UK and the international rules based system - Dr Nicholas Wright

The IRBS has evolved as a means of developing – to the extent possible – predictability and stability between states as sovereign actors. At a basic level it can be understood as encompassing three main components: (i) formal structures and institutions – e.g. the UN, IMF, WTO, etc. – and also regional organisations such as the EU, ASEAN and NATO; (ii) rules, treaties and international law – e.g. the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, the UN Refugee Convention, or the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) and (iii) the norms and values that have developed around and through these – e.g. support and promotion of democracy, equality, and human rights. Many of these were deliberately established and/or have evolved primarily since the end of the Second World War as a means of managing and regulating how states interact.
 
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