AS90 or PzH 2000?

#1
Total artillery neophyte; was trying to scope out the relative worth of the British AS90 and its German counterpart when I came across this post on theworldofpolitics.com:

A while back I got a chance to get a tour and demonstration of the both of these selfpropelled 155 mm howitzers and I thought I would share my thoughts on them and what I was told by their respective crews.

First on the PanzerHaubits. The German army's new macho toy
I got a "dry" demonstration of it's advanced automated shell loading system and was quite impressed. It seemed fast, robust and is reliable according to the crew. Naturally you can load it manually as well in case the automated system is damaged. The system works so that you put the rounds in a cradle on the outside aft part of the vehicle and punch a couple of buttons, what kind of grenade it is etc and anter. The grenade is then "sucked inside" and put in a storage rack with impressive speed. When you want to fire later on you specify the grenade type on a touch screen and the computer remembers where those are in the racks and loads it.
The vehicle also seemed well thought out and the aft compartment was pretty spacious so you could move around with ease, very important in order for the crew to function at their best.
Another good feature is the consol for angaging targets directly which is located pretty far forward in the vehicle. This consol, normally unmanned, had a screen, some buttons and a, from the looks of it, pretty advanced joystick.
I also took a good look around inside and noted that everything seemed robust and sturdy, even wiring and electric equipment for which notoriously civilian standards are used. Not here, good solid military style.
The driver place was likewise a place where functionality had taken the upper hand. Comfortable with a high tech steering wheel and vehicle control panel.
It also has got attachment points for add-on armour on the outside which shows there has been some planning ahead done.
So all in all I liked this very much and so did the crew, they had yet to manage to get it to break down or get stuck somewhere despite their best tries. The 1000hp engine does a good job albeit a bit loud.

Now to the AS 90 Braveheart. The British army's new howitzer.
This design is a few years older than that of the Panzerhaubitz and I was naturally prepared on that it would seem slightly older to the eye but I had some surprises in store for me, both good and bad.
But more on that later on. First let me tell you on my first impression of it. When I first got inside the first you think is "this is much smaller". My best estimate is that there was only half as much crewspace as in the PzH. I got the feel that this was less well thought out as well and even the seats felt uncomfortable (and I was used to riding around in a very archaic terrain vehicle with less comfort than a Willy's Jeep).
What is also striking is also the fact that it has no automated loading system so everything is done manually. This is cheaper and less space consuming but also slower than an automated system despite what some people thinks about those. The electronic consols seemed more modern than I had anticipated but the rest of the vehicle lived up to my imagination and in one case shocked me. That is, I can swear that NBC system consol must have been salvaged from a Centurion tank from the fifties. It was simply as WWII as you can get today. I asked a guy in the crew about it and he said "you know, I've been thinking the same thing myself".
The paint coats on the metal parts on the inside was thick and with the kind of paint you see on old industry equipment which gave it an archaic feeling. I asked about how durable the vehicle was on the inside and was told that below kneelevel you could spray the dirt off with a high-pressure water wash but above that the equipment was sensitive which I had already suspected seeing the thin and obviously week wiring much more "civilian" in standard than on the PzH.
The engine is quiter on the AS90 for a simple reason. It has got 400 hp less than the PzH despite just beeing a few tonnes lighter. This 600 hp engine is thus insufficient and besides the lower speed the crew had managed to get this vehicle stuck a few times.
No attachment points for add-on armour here.
So to summarise I was a bit disappointed by it.
However, in all fairness it should be mentioned that one AS90 Braveheart costs about half of what one PanzerHaubits costs. I do think the extra cost is justified though.

That's it!
Comments from anyone?
Fairly damning; is Germany's equipment really that much better than ours? (Post is from 2002.)
 
#2
What a shit review, based on looks and assumptions.

FFS referring to the Shell as a grenade - how can anybody take the reviewer seriously.
 
#3
What a shit review, based on looks and assumptions.

FFS referring to the Shell as a grenade - how can anybody take the reviewer seriously.
I suspect it's either a translation or a quote from one mate.

The item on a Future Weapons Show was good. It's ability to land multiple rounds on target was only really possible or indeed maintainable with the autoloader. The Huns outlook was these things could replace conventional types in fewer numbers because of the weapon capability. Of course, IANAE.
 
#4
Panzer 2000 allthough very fast with its autmative loading does have a lot of problems due to various climates with its circuit boards which are putting this Gun out of action
 
#5
How fast is the auto loader?

IIRC the RA are required to achieve 3 rounds in 10 secs.
 
#6
How fast is the auto loader?

IIRC the RA are required to achieve 3 rounds in 10 secs.
According to Wiki 3 rounds in 9 sec and 10 in 56. 2 man replen in 12 mins(60 rounds)
 
#7
Panzer 2000 allthough very fast with its autmative loading does have a lot of problems due to various climates with its circuit boards which are putting this Gun out of action
Wikipedia
It is particularly notable for a very high rate of fire; in burst mode it can fire three rounds in 9 seconds, ten rounds in 56 seconds, and can fire between 10 and 13 rounds per minute continuously, depending on barrel heating
 
#8
He's comparing an in-service weapon, with a discontinued one! Unless I am mistaken, the 'Braveheart' variant had ammo problems or something.....Still a shit revue!
 
#9
The gun is only the last link in the chain.
Target recon, information handling, logistics, calculate firing solution, etc etc...from my pov view, letting the rounds fly is the easy part. Whos arty is better? The brit guns have certainly fired more rounds in anger, then ours.

PzH 2000 has been used in AFG for some time now(German and Netherlands units) and fares well under the climate conditions there. They've become a valuable asset there. From what I've heared the dutch even used it in direct fire mode to discourage some INS from attacking their base.
 
D

Deleted 20555

Guest
#11
If one is about to purchase a car, hand tools, washing machines and dishwashers, firearms of any type or armoured fighting vehicles it is always best to buy the one that comes with it's instruction manual in German.
 
#12
The gun is only the last link in the chain.
Target recon, information handling, logistics, calculate firing solution, etc etc...from my pov view, letting the rounds fly is the easy part. Whos arty is better? The brit guns have certainly fired more rounds in anger, then ours.

PzH 2000 has been used in AFG for some time now(German and Netherlands units) and fares well under the climate conditions there. They've become a valuable asset there. From what I've heared the dutch even used it in direct fire mode to discourage some INS from attacking their base.
"Letting the rounds fly is the easy part", what a crock of shit.

I ll agree with you on the Recce/Survey, OP and CP side of things, thats called preparation, if thats ****, so are the rounds on the ground, however, you could have the best prep, and the worst gun and still effectively get rounds down on adjustment, but the worst prep and the best gun, and with bad adjustment be dropping-short/off-bearing/over-shot.

Dont blame the boys with the tools, its normally the boys with the instruments!
 
#13
Can't go wrong with an FH-70.
[Wah shield] You are seriously deluded!![/Wah shield]

If one is about to purchase a car, hand tools, washing machines and dishwashers, firearms of any type or armoured fighting vehicles it is always best to buy the one that comes with it's instruction manual in German.
Remind me again why the German tanks couldn't function against the Russians in their winters in WWII? Would it be something along the lines of over-engineering?
 
D

Deleted 20555

Guest
#14
Feel free to rock up to the next war with military equivalent of a Lada - I would suggest you take a look at Russian military victories since 1945 and get back to us on your choices.

I won't even go into washing machines, dish washers, irons or tumble driers.
 
#15
Feel free to rock up to the next war with military equivalent of a Lada - I would suggest you take a look at Russian military victories since 1945 and get back to us on your choices.

I won't even go into washing machines, dish washers, irons or tumble driers.
No, you're right...The German war machine wasn't beaten by over-engineering and the T34 etc. were just cheap crap that didn't do very well at all!...As for the rest, are you aware that that all those goods you mention, are merely ASSEMBLED in Germany and not actually made here?
 
D

Deleted 20555

Guest
#17
PS am being very polite with the description of "prat" btw.

I'll bet you thought you were oh so scary back in the last century.
 
#18
Do people ever tell you that you take things far too seriously and are a bit of a prat?
PS am being very polite with the description of "prat" btw.

I'll bet you thought you were oh so scary back in the last century.
Really!? I couldn't care less about what you think of me and was merely pointing out that your view all things Teutonic, isn't quite what you think it is.....as for your last sentence, you seem a little confused to my nationality.
 
#19
Anyhow, bot, not being a gunner, don't know much about the subject, but AS90 is getting a bit long in the tooth now so to speak, even when that date of the original article is taken into account. I recall seeing AS90 going through tempest testing or somthing similar back in 91 in Blandford. So the base platform is going back 20yrs+ at least, not taking into account the start of the concept. How old is the German SPG by comparison?


Sent from my iPhone using ARRSE so I should probably be working....
 
#20
Anyhow, bot, not being a gunner, don't know much about the subject, but AS90 is getting a bit long in the tooth now so to speak, even when that date of the original article is taken into account. I recall seeing AS90 going through tempest testing or somthing similar back in 91 in Blandford. So the base platform is going back 20yrs+ at least, not taking into account the start of the concept. How old is the German SPG by comparison?

Sent from my iPhone using ARRSE so I should probably be working....
It came on the back of the failure of the SP70 and the contract for the PzH 2000, was from 1996 I believe.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Ignorant_Layman Gunners 12
GunnersQuadrant Gunners 90
Bad CO Weapons, Equipment & Rations 4

Similar threads

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top