Article in todays telegraph

#2
'Tis funny as over the past few days Bliar has denied any knowledge and at a recent function he was "visibly irritated" by the repeated questioning over this incident. Des Browne, meanwhile, continues to deny he gave authority for this decision saying he only knew about it and has tried to apportion all blame on the Royal Navy. Bliar is said to be washing his hands of the whole affair. What a sad sorry state of affairs for this once great nation of ours.
 
#3
FABLONBIFFCHIT said:
'Tis funny as over the past few days Bliar has denied any knowledge and at a recent function he was "visibly irritated" by the repeated questioning over this incident. Des Browne, meanwhile, continues to deny he gave authority for this decision saying he only knew about it and has tried to apportion all blame on the Royal Navy. Bliar is said to be washing his hands of the whole affair. What a sad sorry state of affairs for this once great nation of ours.
Is that Pontius Bliar :?: If the public had liked the decision, make no mistake, The Dear Leader would have scooped all of the credit.
 
#4
For sure...I imagine the scenario went something like this..."Look we've had fifteen service people taken hostage and now by luck rather than skill we've got them back, so, everybody loves a good hostage/POW story - look at that B20 for example. We get the service people to put their stories in the press and ride the feel-good factor." "Great idea Julian, people always like servicemen and women, I don't know why but they do..."

Later..."I can't understand it? What was different about these hostages Quentin and their shabby money grubbing? After all politicians do it every day?"

Serves them right.
 
#5
FrontLine First

Options for change

Strategic Defence Review.

Executed by Labour, but a Tory initative.

The sale of the entire housing stock to a property developer.

The Conservatives have done more damage to tri-service morale and standing whilst protesting they support us, than Labour ever did previously.

I'm not sure if the current Labour Party* just hate the Armed Forces, or are totally indifferent to our plight.


Stop criticising , sniping and whining Dr. Fox and start lobbying for stronger better equipped Armed Forces. That should be the Conservative mantra.

It may also go some way to show contrition for some of the ghastly decisions implemented by your party.







*Excluding John Reid.
 
#6
PartTimePongo said:
FrontLine First

Options for change

Strategic Defence Review.

Executed by Labour, but a Tory initative.

The sale of the entire housing stock to a property developer.

The Conservatives have done more damage to tri-service morale and standing whilst protesting they support us, than Labour ever did previously.

I'm not sure if the current Labour Party* just hate the Armed Forces, or are totally indifferent to our plight.


Stop criticising , sniping and whining Dr. Fox and start lobbying for stronger better equipped Armed Forces. That should be the Conservative mantra.

It may also go some way to show contrition for some of the ghastly decisions implemented by your party.







*Excluding John Reid.
Quite agree. Labour largely followed through on Tory initiatives.

Labour are not, I think, actively ill-disposed towards the Forces, but are simply indifferent.

Fox lacks backbone, and it's hard to see how a Cameron govt. would significantly help the Forces. It's a disgrace.
 
#7
caubeen said:
PartTimePongo said:
FrontLine First

Options for change

Strategic Defence Review.

Executed by Labour, but a Tory initative.

The sale of the entire housing stock to a property developer.

The Conservatives have done more damage to tri-service morale and standing whilst protesting they support us, than Labour ever did previously.

I'm not sure if the current Labour Party* just hate the Armed Forces, or are totally indifferent to our plight.


Stop criticising , sniping and whining Dr. Fox and start lobbying for stronger better equipped Armed Forces. That should be the Conservative mantra.

It may also go some way to show contrition for some of the ghastly decisions implemented by your party.







*Excluding John Reid.
Quite agree. Labour largely followed through on Tory initiatives.

Labour are not, I think, actively ill-disposed towards the Forces, but are simply indifferent.

Fox lacks backbone, and it's hard to see how a Cameron govt. would significantly help the Forces. It's a disgrace.
What a couple of short memoried fcukwits! If it wasn't for the Tories coming in in 79, we'd have no army as the pay was crap and everyone was leaving and they'd be speaking spanish in the Falklands!
 
#8
Agree with caubeen. Fox has done the rounds in the TV studios but has failed to come up with the killer punch.

Heard a leaky hack close to the Tories saying that he'd seen their tax proposals and, frankly there was no extra money for health or education and as we all know, defence is far further down the list of priorities.

Things will get worse for the armed services under Broon and there'll be very little improvement under the Tories when Broon is swept from office, IMHO
 
#10
FaceLikeAPingPongBall said:
caubeen said:
PartTimePongo said:
What a couple of short memoried fcukwits! If it wasn't for the Tories coming in in 79, we'd have no army as the pay was crap and everyone was leaving and they'd be speaking spanish in the Falklands!
Hmmm, arguably, it was Conservative defence cuts, esp the plan to decommission HMS Endurance that gave Argentina the 'green light' to invade the FI. this was compounded by the miserable failure to do anything decisive and meaningful about the incursion by scrap metal merchants and marines onto South Georgia in the days that preceded the invasion of the Falklands.

A couple of years ago some journalist did an analysis of Conservative and Labour approaches to Defence. Pay was generally better under Conservative govts and equipment spending generally was better under Labour govts. Swings and roundabouts.

(edited for general stupidity)
 
#11
While i agree with you PTP that the reductions in our Armed Forces began under Conservative Government i truly believe that at the time they were justified to some degree.

New Liabore have continued the trend while at the same time signing up to every conflict across the world that they considered would increase their standing on the world stage. That is where the stretch (because we are obviously not over-stretched) has come from.

The new model Army post OFC would have met the need before Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, East Timor, Sierra Leone etc etc etc
 
#12
What a couple of short memoried fcukwits! If it wasn't for the Tories coming in in 79, we'd have no army as the pay was crap and everyone was leaving and they'd be speaking spanish in the Falklands!
What had to go to increase the pay? How many redundancies were there? There are enough posts floating around on Arrse from people who were serving at that time.

What happened to British Forces after Granby?


The point of my original post was Forces decimation is not an exclusively Labour preserve.

If the Conservatives hope to catch the Forces vote, instead of taking it for granted in these much enlightened times , they need to damn well work for it.

That means Dr.Foxter needs to be making the strengthening of the Armed Forces his mantra.
 
#13
King_of_the_Burpas said:
Agree with caubeen. Fox has done the rounds in the TV studios but has failed to come up with the killer punch.

Heard a leaky hack close to the Tories saying that he'd seen their tax proposals and, frankly there was no extra money for health or education and as we all know, defence is far further down the list of priorities.

Things will get worse for the armed services under Broon and there'll be very little improvement under the Tories when Broon is swept from office, IMHO
Defence only does well when there are votes associated with it, or another big-stakes issue. Over the past few months, Defence has re-entrered the public consciousness as a political issue (albeit, not always in a good or intelligent way) and will hopefully remain there. This should have a positive impact on the politicos' perceptions of how important Defence actually is.
 
#14
caubeen said:
Labour are not, I think, actively ill-disposed towards the Forces, but are simply indifferent.
Rheinstorff said:
A couple of years ago some journalist did an analysis of Conservative and Labour approaches to Defence. Pay was generally better under Conservative govts and equipment spending generally was better under Labour govts. Swings and roundabouts.
The crux of the matter is, as I see it, how the government of the day treats the Armed Forces in direct relation to how they use them. The thing that makes Bliar's governments since 1997 stand out as negligent-to-criminal is the fact that they've despatched the Armed Forces to carry out an aggressive foreign policy agenda without providing the equipment and manning budgets to do so.

The Tories might not have lavished the Armed Forces with pop-star wages and gucci kit, but they didn't deploy them left-right-and-centre to the point of over-stretch (or not :roll: ).
 
#15
wessex_warrior said:
However the the mass amalgamation of the infantry and consequent loss of thousands of years of accumulated regimental history is very much a Neu Arbeit piece. So stick that up your pipe and smoke it.
That's undoubtedly true; but the Tories had created a momentum that lent impetus to Labour's wish for changes.

And it's a disgrace . . .
 
#16
The sale of the entire housing stock to a property developer.

Terra Firma owned by Guy Hands, Adviser one William Hague, Oxford friend of Guy Hands.

John Major Cabinet privatising military housing stock; Welsh Secretary, William Hague
 
#17
King_of_the_Burpas said:
Agree with caubeen. Fox has done the rounds in the TV studios but has failed to come up with the killer punch.

Heard a leaky hack close to the Tories saying that he'd seen their tax proposals and, frankly there was no extra money for health or education and as we all know, defence is far further down the list of priorities.

Things will get worse for the armed services under Broon and there'll be very little improvement under the Tories when Broon is swept from office, IMHO
Fox was given repeated opportunities to knobble Labour over the past 3-4 days but wimped out on every occasion I saw him. Only Hague twisted the knife.

Brown will be an unmitigated disaster in every way; and it's hard to see the Forces benefitting significantly from anything Cameron's lot are currently offering.

I hope to goodness that there is an increasing public concern with defence matters, but frankly I don't much see it.
 
#18
[quote="DozyBint] The Tories might not have lavished the Armed Forces with pop-star wages and gucci kit, but they didn't deploy them left-right-and-centre to the point of over-stretch (or not :roll: ).[/quote]

True, the Tories did not do this. Partly this was down to a different international environment, partly because the Conservative Party in Govt under Major was so internally consumed with conflict, and the home agenda was taking precedence. Let's not forget however, the heavy Tory commitment of the Armed Forces to the Balkans and the spineless approach to RoE, under UN auspices, which probably continued rather than mitigated the internecine conflict. It was only when the US put some backbone into NATO and started launching air strikes on the Serbs that the situation changed. The Tories did no favours to the Armed Forces putting them in harm's way without the wherewithall to complete a meaningful mission.
 
#19
I hope to goodness that there is an increasing public concern with defence matters, but frankly I don't much see it.
Wasn't a lot in the USA either until those aircraft landed in the World Trade Center.........all these politicians are reactive.......just watch if some Pakistani/Arab or assorted maniacs decide to do serious damage somewhere.

One never knows what lies around the corner and I personally think the days ahead hold the prospect of violent uncertainty.....
 
#20
Rheinstorff said:
…partly because the Conservative Party in Govt under Major was so internally consumed with conflict, and the home agenda was taking precedence...
Agreed once more, but irrespective of the cause, if a government chooses not to commit to expansive and expensive foreign policy objectives and use the Armed Forces in the execution of those aims, then they can make the appropriate budget decisions. As I said in a previous thread, had Bliar and his gang come to power and said that given the Labour Party’s heritage of pacifism they’d be reining in the role of the military, whilst I’d not have agreed with the decision I’d have accepted it. What this government has done is to (in real terms) cut the budget and increase (massively) the commitments, which is what makes my blood boil!


Rheinstorff said:
Let's not forget however, the heavy Tory commitment of the Armed Forces to the Balkans and the spineless approach to RoE, under UN auspices, which probably continued rather than mitigated the internecine conflict.
I agree with some of this, insofar as the Tories committed to the region but reference the UN’s role, had the UK / NATO immediately acted outside of the remit provided by the UN resolutions, they’d have been accused of being imperial aggressors, so was that a failure of the UK government to act or a failure of the UN to provide the international legitimacy of more robust action?
 

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