Article 50 Served: And so it Starts.....

Auld-Yin

ADC
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At the moment, the EU appear to have gone into full cult mode and are determined to punish the dissenter. It would be nice to think that wiser heads will eventually prevail. That may or may not happen, but if the EU really are determined to give us a kicking, it will be at a great cost to themselves.

View attachment 277648

It really does serve to illustrate what a wholly authoritarian, unbalanced and protectionist organisation it really is. (In fact, the chart suggests to me that the EU is entirely insolvent). In spite of the much-vaunted rebate that we secured (now somewhat diminished), we are one of the very few net contributors to the total EU budget (second only to Germany).
From your graph, although it is not clear, it would appear that while Germany are larger contributors they also have a much larger EU spend in their country. It looks like UK and Netherlands are greater nett contributors than Germany.
 
From your graph, although it is not clear, it would appear that while Germany are larger contributors they also have a much larger EU spend in their country. It looks like UK and Netherlands are greater nett contributors than Germany.
On a proportionate basis like that, I think it would be fair to give NL top billing.
 
If on the other hand, they still get their 100 pages, but the content is ever lower grade intelligence, they might conclude that we have nothing better, or maybe we are being less successful, or that we cannot get the high quality stiff because they're being less cooperative.

They simply cannot know.
Nothing that might be of use to Spain for the next month though.;)
 
I agree. However the rhetoric and acrimonious divorce is likely to rile the individual member states nonetheless.

Your counter arguments?
We are not negotiating with individual states; that much has been made clear to us at length and in unequivocal terms more than once by the EU. Any internal arguments/discontent within the EU member states is a matter for them to resolve/assuage.

None of this is inconsistent with what many pro-leave posters have already said, which contradicts you and your fellow croutons' avowed desire to make the process as unpleasant and costly as possible for the British public, purely to alleviate your personal disappointment at having lost the Brexit vote.

Like it or not, you will have to accept the fact eventually. Name-calling, straw-grasping, dissembling, sneering and any other ploy in your arsenal are not going to sway your opponents to your side of the argument.

Project Fear is long-dead; no-one cares about Remainers' prognostications of doom and vows of another referendum - there is no eleventh hour salvation and the cavalry aren't coming. Accept it, stop being sore losers and move on.

This country needs it's people's support, not their contempt.
 
At the moment, the EU appear to have gone into full cult mode and are determined to punish the dissenter. It would be nice to think that wiser heads will eventually prevail. That may or may not happen, but if the EU really are determined to give us a kicking, it will be at a great cost to themselves.

View attachment 277648

It really does serve to illustrate what a wholly authoritarian, unbalanced and protectionist organisation it really is. (In fact, the chart suggests to me that the EU is entirely insolvent). In spite of the much-vaunted rebate that we secured (now somewhat diminished), we are one of the very few net contributors to the total EU budget (second only to Germany). Our direct financial contribution will go, but it would nevertheless pay them to keep us sweet, as we can contribute to their economy by means of trade. They really cannot afford to give us a kicking and make enemies of us, or anyone else.

So it's either a huge bluff, or else they are so vindictive they cannot see the wood for the trees and, like the cult that they are, are prepared to go into self-destruct mode in order to make some sort of a point. Time will tell.
I'd go with the blindly vindictive. Juncker is a booze addled alcoholic bully, in the classic mould of a domestic abuser.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
Interesting article in the Telegraph.

Farmers across Europe will suffer if UK drops food tariffs, report claims
Farmers across Europe will suffer if the UK unilaterally drops tariffs on food imports after Brexit, in a move that will increase competition and reduce costs for British families, new analysis claims.

...said such a move would be "consistent with the UK’s historically pro-free trade approach", but would also reduce food security and make the UK more vulnerable to volatility in world market prices.
In summary:
  • UK families would be better off because we could import cheaper alternatives to EU food, although we might have to pay more for specific food products like olive oil.
  • The British farming sector might suffer because of increased competition and would require subsidy.
  • The British farming sector currently relies on cheap labour from Europe to be competitive - presumably we'd have to allow immigration to consider for the farming sector.
  • Without a trade deal, import tariffs go in place, making food from the CAP even more expensive.
  • We import £30 billion worth of food annually from the EU - lots of small farmers are going to out of business in Europe. Lots of strain in the CAP and increased unemployment in many areas of Europe - rural France for example.
This was interesting as well.
...after Brexit, EU countries would have "an interest in maintaining access to the British market, while the UK will no longer only have to look to the EU for its food needs". Irish beef farmers and EU exporters of beef, diary, grain and sugar would be the hardest hit by more competition from countries outside the bloc...
More woe for the EU after Brexit.

Wordsmith
 
We are not negotiating with individual states; that much has been made clear to us at length and in unequivocal terms more than once by the EU. Any internal arguments/discontent within the EU member states is a matter for them to resolve/assuage.

None of this is inconsistent with what many pro-leave posters have already said, which contradicts you and your fellow croutons' avowed desire to make the process as unpleasant and costly as possible for the British public, purely to alleviate your personal disappointment at having lost the Brexit vote.

Like it or not, you will have to accept the fact eventually. Name-calling, straw-grasping, dissembling, sneering and any other ploy in your arsenal are not going to sway your opponents to your side of the argument.

Project Fear is long-dead; no-one cares about Remainers' prognostications of doom and vows of another referendum - there is no eleventh hour salvation and the cavalry aren't coming. Accept it, stop being sore losers and move on.

This country needs it's people's support, not their contempt.
By supporting the country, the leavers would have those who are sceptical of our governments handling of this process to shut up any criticism.

This is the exact opposite of healthy discourse in a democracy that we have ostensibly, all of a sudden retaken control of.

An entirely hypocritical position
 
I'd go with the blindly vindictive. Juncker is a booze addled alcoholic bully, in the classic mould of a domestic abuser.
I think you're probably right. Have you seen that thing he does when he meets other statesmen? He pats them (quite forcefully - more of a slap) on the side of the face. A classic example of a bully trying to establish dominance in the guise of bonhomie.


I once had a bit of a falling out with a consultant surgeon who did a similar thing by unfailingly offering a handshake with his palm turned downwards; a totally unnatural thing to do unless you're trying to score a point. He wasn't pissed either.
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I'd go with the blindly vindictive. Juncker is a booze addled alcoholic bully, in the classic mould of a domestic abuser.
I don't think it's purely vindictive, although that is a part of it. There's also the political imperative of keeping the EU alive. If we're seen to prosper outside of the union, that may encourage other electorates to vote out. I suspect the EU is willing to absorb some costs to themselves to ensure that we aren't seen to receive a golden deal.

In the slightly longer term, I predict that Brexit will lead to changes within the EU. That combined with the Greek economic disaster will be hard to absorb. A two-speed alliance, with core countries using the Euro and an outer group of customs union countries has a decent chance of being introduced.
 
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I think you're probably right. Have you seen that thing he does when he meets other statesmen? He pats them (quite forcefully - more of a slap) on the side of the face. A classic example of a bully trying to establish dominance in the guise of bonhomie.


I once had a bit of a falling out with a consultant surgeon who did a similar thing by unfailingly offering a handshake with his palm turned downwards; a totally unnatural thing to do unless you're trying to score a point. He wasn't pissed either.
Hadn't seen that before. How no one has ever punched his lights out is beyond me.
 
I don't give a flying howsyerfather who he is, he slaps me and he's going deckwards in a horizontal attitude. And he's pissed at work. Anyone else want to try that and hope their boss will turn a blind eye? :cool:.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
I didn't think it's purely vindictive, although that is a part of it. There's also the political imperative of keeping the EU alive. If we're seen to prosper outside of the union, that may encourage other electorates to vote out. I suspect the EU is willing to absorb some costs to themselves to ensure that we aren't seen to receive a golden deal.
The implications for the EU of another major economy hitting the exit button are potentially horrendous. Although there is an exit mechanism for the EU, there is none for the eurozone. The EU is royally fornicated if a nation like France (Marine Le Pen), Italy (Five Star), Spain (Podemos) or Germany (large bill for failing eurozone countries) wants to leave.

Effectively, the EU is between the devil and the deep blue sea. They can't afford to let us prosper outside of the EU - hence the tough terms they're trying to enforce. But if they make them too tough and May says "f___ you, hard Brexit it is", the EU suffers - probably more that the UK.

At least the UK's destiny is in its own hands. We could make a pigs ear of Brexit and suffer a mini-recession. Or, if we negotiate good exit terms terms, good trade deals with out countries and reform the UK's laws to suit the UK, we could do very well indeed.

Wordsmith
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
EU member states closing ranks
Er, Scotland isn't a member state, the UK is though!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 

ancienturion

LE
Book Reviewer
No it won't. Indian culture has so many benefits and great things to offer us, yet for forty odd years we ignored this jewel and attempted to make friends with Europeans who have contributed nothing to science, arts and technology.
But some of Custer's mates wiped them out, or tried to.
 
By supporting the country, the leavers would have those who are sceptical of our governments handling of this process to shut up any criticism.

This is the exact opposite of healthy discourse in a democracy that we have ostensibly, all of a sudden retaken control of.

An entirely hypocritical position
You may not previously have been aware that it is possible to be critical of the government at the same time as being supportive of your country. Now you are.
 
You may not previously have been aware that it is possible to be critical of the government at the same time as being supportive of your country. Now you are.
He's not even entertaining any more. I've had him on ignore and only attract the odd head dobbing frenzy. My world is much less stressful not having to explain the same points ad infinitum on various similar threads to the same strange posters.
 
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Imagine, if you will an atheist such as Higgs Bosun walking down the street and bumping into Jesus Christ out on the lash with Buddha, Horus and Odin.

Is he more likely to say

'Stone me, I got it wrong!' or just deny the event in its entirety and try to find any reason at all why this cannot be so?
Fantasy, the combination of ridiculous conjecture in an imaginary world and complete denial of reality. The mind of a brexit voter exposed.
 
I just can't see how any deal, should we manage to arrive at one, and within the 2 year time span, will get accepted by all of the other 27. How we would proceed from there is a bit of a mystery, except for the WTO rules applying.
 

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