Army WO3s and RAF WO1s

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#41
As presiding member in a Garrison mess, we only had room for WOs1. One Bn had 16 Conductors.
The lunch was informal prior to a mess meeting. It forestalled many a faux pas.
The Sig Regt in question had 5 or 6 WO1s, IIRC. The RSM at the time wasn't the best, tbh. I was staggered to run into him as an LE Capt RCMO half-a-dozen years later.
 
#46
Wow, thanks for that. I thought (only briefly!) there was a possibility I might have got it wrong!

TBH I only threw it in as a sop to the RAF who don't know their own history and came out with the cr@p about not having WO1s when their history dictates that they do and they just changed the rank title rather than binning the rank.
Most army capbadges will make their junior soldiers learn some off-by-heart regimental history. At the lowest possible level. Just because of that, don't think that there aren't many in the RAF fully up to speed with their own history.

We don't have WO1s and your semantics about 'just changing the title' is hoop. We do have OR-9s - the correct rank for that is WO or one of the Master Air Crew.

Want a legal basis for it?

JPA Assignment orders say at the top 'This is an order within the meaning of the Service's Discipline Act'. It is a lawful command.

And an RAF Assignment order posting a WO will say 'In the rank of: WO' (Not WO1) making it a legally correct term.
 
#47
Most army capbadges will make their junior soldiers learn some off-by-heart regimental history. At the lowest possible level. Just because of that, don't think that there aren't many in the RAF fully up to speed with their own history.

We don't have WO1s and your semantics about 'just changing the title' is hoop. We do have OR-9s - the correct rank for that is WO or one of the Master Air Crew.

Want a legal basis for it?

JPA Assignment orders say at the top 'This is an order within the meaning of the Service's Discipline Act'. It is a lawful command.

And an RAF Assignment order posting a WO will say 'In the rank of: WO' (Not WO1) making it a legally correct term.
Just to play devils advocate or the ,what if’ game for a moment;

I wonder what the stance about it not being a WO1 would have been had they all been made OR8s when they combined the rank.

Hypothetically of course :)
 
#48
I should imagine more than a few WO2s have embarrassed by being a dick to RAF Flt Sgts.

Flt Sgt gets promoted. What's his next rank? In Army terms, WO1.

"Get your heels together, shitlips. Now who's laughing?"

Having spent almost half my career in Air Support, including 2 1/2 years on an air base as a WO2, I found acting like a Warrant Officer and not a line manager in EassyJet had more impact. The RAF WOs could bitch and moan at me all they wanted, and don't get me started on Chief Techs and Flight Sergeants, but I considered myself a merit based WO and not just the senior techy around. The fact that many were 15+ years older than me was the icing on the cake.
 
#49
Just to play devils advocate or the ,what if’ game for a moment;

I wonder what the stance about it not being a WO1 would have been had they all been made OR8s when they combined the rank.

Hypothetically of course :)
A quick blast of wikipedia says the NATO rank grades were released in 1978 - a few years after the RAF dropped WO2. That pedantry aside, had they topped out the pay of all RAF WOs at WO2 equivalent, they'd still be WOs not WO2s - the lack of the number being based on there only being one grade, not what said grade equated to previously or in other services!
 
#50
Very true dingerr, created casually and locally because the number of slots for those elevated above Sgt were all full and the guys had to stay in a Troop, or, so experienced and valuable in a Troop that their O.C wasn't going to let them go.
Not really, they give an indication of the relevance of the position

WO2(CSM) is a command appointment, WO2(SQMI) Instructor, WO2(SQMS) Staffs Appointment.

There is also seniority within appointments, I believe it is RQMS, SQMS, but not sure after that.
I am talking about Staff Sgt in a Cav Sabre Sqn, generally the senior NCO rank in a Troop would be a Sgt but if suddenly there was a plethora of S/Sgt's, due to say an amalgamation, then the "appointment/title" of TSM was created/used. Cav regiments differed greatly and to some extent were a law unto themselves, as has already been mentioned QDG/QOH/H,Cav had different names for the same ranks, I'm not talking war years but late 70's onwards.
This law unto themselves wasn't restricted to rank structure or titles, there are numerous examples but that's another subject.
 
#51
A quick blast of wikipedia says the NATO rank grades were released in 1978 - a few years after the RAF dropped WO2. That pedantry aside, had they topped out the pay of all RAF WOs at WO2 equivalent, they'd still be WOs not WO2s - the lack of the number being based on there only being one grade, not what said grade equated to previously or in other services!
Funny how some WOs/stations historically, haven’t embraced the whole army WO structure as being fellow WOs in that case then :)

Self importance can be a funny old thing ^~
 
#52
I'd have thought it was unlikely to be from the days of WO3s as they didn't replace SSgts but supplemented pl / tp comds. I vaguely recall QOH and QDG had an odd variant of Cpl Major or something similar and I think it'd be far more likely to come from that. I'll have a look when it's raining!
Nah, it was QOH...only got called Sgt. Maj a couple of times, usually by older Sqn leaders, after a couple of months it was"MY OFFICE NOW"
 
#53
I was attached to QDG as a SSgt and was referred to as Sergeant Major by them, took a bit of getting used to, especially as I was just called Staff by my own mob!
I wonder if that was simple courtesy or a bit of idleness?
I was QOH and the SSgts in the regiment were called sergeant major and the REME SSgts were called “Staff”. No confusion, no backs up and everyone knew who everyone was. The REME lads in the squadron were slightly amused at first, but we were fairly intertwined anyway. I think some of the Craftsmen liked to call the SQMS “Staff”, but they never got a rise.
 
#54
Unfortunately not any more, that ship (and bait) sailed when we made all these ‘super Sergeant Majors’ LE officer posts :)

7/10 must try harder ^~
Conductor should have been binned in ‘93 with the end of the RAOC. I find it disgusting that non RAOC trades have been awarded the honour.
 
#55
Most army capbadges will make their junior soldiers learn some off-by-heart regimental history. At the lowest possible level. Just because of that, don't think that there aren't many in the RAF fully up to speed with their own history.

We don't have WO1s and your semantics about 'just changing the title' is hoop. We do have OR-9s - the correct rank for that is WO or one of the Master Air Crew.

Want a legal basis for it?

JPA Assignment orders say at the top 'This is an order within the meaning of the Service's Discipline Act'. It is a lawful command.

And an RAF Assignment order posting a WO will say 'In the rank of: WO' (Not WO1) making it a legally correct term.
I thought my ask in the opening post was pretty simple:

"According to official and unofficial histories of the RAF, on the other hand, the RAF re-named Sergeant Major 1st Class and Sergeant Major 2nd Class to WO1 and WO2 in 1933 to copy the Army, abolishing and phasing out WO2s in 1939 and re-naming WO1's as "Warrant Officer"s. As this wasn't a change to the rank structure of the RAF, unlike the abolishing of WO2s, and was only a "re-naming" of WO1s to 'Warrant Officers', unless the rank was officially abolished and not just re-named (? anybody, with evidence) the RAF still has WO1s and they've just been re-named 'Warrant Officers' to simplify the rank title"

If you're fully up to speed with your history, what's the problem?

... and I'm not suggesting it's not a "legally correct term" at all. That's a complete mis-reading of the post and I don't know where you got that from.

On the contrary that's exactly what I'm suggesting it is - the legally correct term for a WO1, which was what WO1s were re-named to in 1939 when WO2 rank was abolished. What part of that are you disagreeing with, exactly? What part, exactly, are you saying is wrong?

Edit: and if you're quoting wiki as a source, that's what they say too: WO2 binned, WO1 re-named to WO. If that's wrong, what's wrong with it?
 
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#56
Having spent almost half my career in Air Support, including 2 1/2 years on an air base as a WO2, I found acting like a Warrant Officer and not a line manager in EassyJet had more impact. The RAF WOs could bitch and moan at me all they wanted, and don't get me started on Chief Techs and Flight Sergeants, but I considered myself a merit based WO and not just the senior techy around. The fact that many were 15+ years older than me was the icing on the cake.
When is an RAF WO not a WO?

Simples. just keep on walking when the station ensign is being hauled up, or down. Alternatively, take a shortcut across 'their grass', and you will find out.
 
#57
When is an RAF WO not a WO?

Simples. just keep on walking when the station ensign is being hauled up, or down. Alternatively, take a shortcut across 'their grass', and you will find out.
It pains me to say it, but yes, they do tend to be a bit precious about things that I personally am a bit more relaxed about.

But always fun at mess dos when their battle of the jubilees and LS&GC with bar were put to shame. Although their EOD boys appeared to have got around a bit.

As an aside, they do mess dress for the summer ball, three layers including two of felt, at personal expense (not for them, it's issued) and the Christmas ball, when you Nedd three layers, is in a suit!
 
#58
Some years ago I was working at an army training establishment. As these things go, it was ostensibly run by the RAF from many miles away. RAF persons decided to visit. Squadron Leader X says to our major: “Hi I’m Bob and this is my WO, Dave”. OC says, hi Bob, I’m John and this is my Sergeant Major. I call him “Sergeant Major”.
RAF people buggered off soon after. “Sergeant Major” (WO2) was certainly laughing the loudest.
 
#59
I thought my ask in the opening post was pretty simple:

"According to official and unofficial histories of the RAF, on the other hand, the RAF re-named Sergeant Major 1st Class and Sergeant Major 2nd Class to WO1 and WO2 in 1933 to copy the Army, abolishing and phasing out WO2s in 1939 and re-naming WO1's as "Warrant Officer"s. As this wasn't a change to the rank structure of the RAF, unlike the abolishing of WO2s, and was only a "re-naming" of WO1s to 'Warrant Officers', unless the rank was officially abolished and not just re-named (? anybody, with evidence) the RAF still has WO1s and they've just been re-named 'Warrant Officers' to simplify the rank title"

If you're fully up to speed with your history, what's the problem?

... and I'm not suggesting it's not a "legally correct term" at all. That's a complete mis-reading of the post and I don't know where you got that from.

On the contrary that's exactly what I'm suggesting it is - the legally correct term for a WO1, which was what WO1s were re-named to in 1939 when WO2 rank was abolished. What part of that are you disagreeing with, exactly? What part, exactly, are you saying is wrong?

Edit: and if you're quoting wiki as a source, that's what they say too: WO2 binned, WO1 re-named to WO. If that's wrong, what's wrong with it?
just accept you're wrong
 
#60
A quick blast of wikipedia says ... (snip) ... - the lack of the number being based on there only being one grade, not what said grade equated to previously or in other services!
A quick blast of Wikipedia, or Revolvy, or any official or unofficial history of the RAF, actually says the complete opposite - that the WO2 rank was abolished and the WO1 rank re-named to WO, as I think I've said. I've put the relevant bit in bold for those still waiting for their Specsavers appointment:

The Royal Air Force first used the ranks of warrant officer class I and II as inherited from theRoyal Flying Corps. It first used the rank badges of the Royal coat of arms for WOI and the crown for WOII. Until the 1930s, these ranks were often known as sergeant major first and second class. In 1939, the RAF abolished the rank of WOII and retained just the WOI rank, referred to as just warrant officer (WO), which it remains to this day. The RAF has no equivalent to WO2 (NATO OR-8 an RAF WO being equivalent to WO1 (NATO OR-9) and wearing the same badge of rank, the Royal coat of arms. The correct way to address a warrant officer is "sir" or "ma'am" by airmen and "mister or warrant officer -surname-" by officers. Most RAF warrant officers do not hold appointments as in the army or Royal Marines; the exception to this is the station warrant officer, who is considered a "first amongst equals" on an RAF station. Warrant officer is the highest non-commissioned rank and ranks above flight sergeant.

Or:

Changes in 1933 & 1939 — warrant officers
In 1933, the ranks of Sergeant Major 1st Class and Sergeant Major 2nd Classwere renamed Warrant Officer Class I and Warrant Officer Class II to put them in line with the Army. In 1939, the rank of Warrant Officer II was abolished and the rank of Warrant Officer I was renamed Warrant Officer. RAF Warrant Officers were given equivalent status to the continuing Army rank of Warrant Officer Class I.

They could all be wrong, of course, as obviously could I for believing them all ......
 
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