Army WO3s and RAF WO1s

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Great times; the level of training required was special.
"Special" ... hmmm ...

If the core part of the Bde, around which everything else was focused, were moving around in Bedfords going "wocca-wocca-wocca", with all training slowed to a crawl out of necessity because of that rather than exercising in 'real time' with hels, then that doesn't sound very "special".

TBH it sounds little better than a thankfully brief time in '81 or '82 when we were reduced in 7Fd Farce to going on ex and shouting "bang-bang" because there wasn't enough blank to do any realistic trg.

I genuinely wish there was another way of looking at it, but being objective the idea that BAOR was "bloody good" doesn't hold up under any sort of scrutiny, nor is that of the last couple of decades any better as the embarrassments of the 'accommodation' in Basra, the COTK, and the state of 'mentored' units in Iraq and Afghanistan show all too clearly.
 
I genuinely wish there was another way of looking at it, but being objective the idea that BAOR was "bloody good" doesn't hold up under any sort of scrutiny, nor is that of the last couple of decades any better as the embarrassments of the 'accommodation' in Basra, the COTK, and the state of 'mentored' units in Iraq and Afghanistan show all too clearly.
Brilliant John, truly outstanding.

Only an utter clown would try and conflate the state of accommodation with standard of training levels.

What accommodation in Basra do you refer to ? When were you there to give us the benefit of your experience and wisdom ?

The '' State '' of the '' mentored '' units in Iraq and Afghanistan was more to do with the level of ( lack of '' Professionalism '' and ''mindset ''of those units and very little to do with the Units that were mentoring them.

You really are a clueless, walting tool.
 

greyfergie

MIA
Book Reviewer
Brilliant John, truly outstanding.

Only an utter clown would try and conflate the state of accommodation with standard of training levels.

What accommodation in Basra do you refer to ? When were you there to give us the benefit of your experience and wisdom ?

The '' State '' of the '' mentored '' units in Iraq and Afghanistan was more to do with the level of ( lack of '' Professionalism '' and ''mindset ''of those units and very little to do with the Units that were mentoring them.

You really are a clueless, walting tool.
You’ve done it now!
 
Brilliant John, truly outstanding.

Only an utter clown would try and conflate the state of accommodation with standard of training levels.

What accommodation in Basra do you refer to ? When were you there to give us the benefit of your experience and wisdom ?

The '' State '' of the '' mentored '' units in Iraq and Afghanistan was more to do with the level of ( lack of '' Professionalism '' and ''mindset ''of those units and very little to do with the Units that were mentoring them.

You really are a clueless, walting tool.
Your best post yet!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

What accommodation in Basra do you refer to ?
The one which was first denied, then increasingly revealed in the media, then embarrassingly revealed with the COTK. That accommodation!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

The '' State '' of the '' mentored '' units in Iraq and Afghanistan was more to do with the level of ( lack of '' Professionalism '' and ''mindset ''of those units and very little to do with the Units that were mentoring them.
Well, the commanders of those on the receiving end didn't think so - particularly the likes of Iraqi General Mohan Al-Furayji when he was supervising the coalition COTK and saw the British mentored 3 Bde, 14 Div throw down their weapons and 1,200 of them run away while the identically recruited and Iraqi led but US mentored 1 Div led the way through Basra cheered by the local crowds! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
You’ve done it now!
No I loved that one! Don't put him off - that post sums up all that's best about him. :rofl::rofl:

No, keep it coming - you're excelling yourself!

Edit: even better now that I see Joker 'liked'his post and agrees with it - I just wish I could give him more than one 'funny'.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Little things please small minds, but that's made my day. :relax:
 
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Your best post yet!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

The one which was first denied, then increasingly revealed in the media, then embarrassingly revealed with the COTK. That accommodation!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Well, the commanders of those on the receiving end didn't think so - particularly the likes of Iraqi General Mohan Al-Furayji when he was supervising the coalition COTK and saw the British mentored 3 Bde, 14 Div throw down their weapons and 1,200 of them run away while the identically recruited and Iraqi led but US mentored 1 Div led the way through Basra cheered by the local crowds! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
So googled with no actual personal experience.
 
Well, the commanders of those on the receiving end didn't think so
These Iraqi Commanders you mean ?

The prime minister of Iraq Sunday said at least 50,000 non-existent soldiers have been collecting salaries from the country's military, revealing corruption in Iraqi ranks that some say led to the army's collapse against extremists over the summer.
The number of ghost soldiers found in the recent investigation is almost equal to the strength of four divisions. Aside from sectarian complexities, corruption in Iraqi military ranks has been blamed for the collapse of four of the Iraqi army's 14 divisions when Islamic State militants went on the offensive in June.
Iraqi PM: Baghdad govt. paying salaries of 50,000 non-existent Iraqi soldiers

Even the Iraqi Commanders are useless, unless it is lining their pockets.
 
These Iraqi Commanders you mean ?

Even the Iraqi Commanders are useless, unless it is lining their pockets.
Those are the ones - the ones we trained!

Come on ..... that really was the classic to end all classics.
So googled with no actual personal experience.
Oh, and no shortage of relevant 'personal experience', but none on Herrick or Telic and none at all of any 'accommodation'.
 
j
I think we're talking at cross purposes.

What I'm saying is unlikely and you seem to be suggesting is what happened is that TA Home Def bns retained their Milan while reg inf bns lost theirs.
John, I’m not suggesting anything, I’m dragging stuff from the recesses of memory. Without a Staff Officers Handbook from that time to refer to we’re just throwing stuff around.
 
"Special" ... hmmm ...

If the core part of the Bde, around which everything else was focused, were moving around in Bedfords going "wocca-wocca-wocca", with all training slowed to a crawl out of necessity because of that rather than exercising in 'real time' with hels, then that doesn't sound very "special".

TBH it sounds little better than a thankfully brief time in '81 or '82 when we were reduced in 7Fd Farce to going on ex and shouting "bang-bang" because there wasn't enough blank to do any realistic trg.

I genuinely wish there was another way of looking at it, but being objective the idea that BAOR was "bloody good" doesn't hold up under any sort of scrutiny, nor is that of the last couple of decades any better as the embarrassments of the 'accommodation' in Basra, the COTK, and the state of 'mentored' units in Iraq and Afghanistan show all too clearly.
Only once has the British Army mounted a counter stroke operation. And once since then has it exercised doing so. The level of training required to do that was huge.

Of course helicopter hours were inadequate, as was track mileage. That’s reality. But, within three years, many of us had taken those training lessons to war.
 
Absolute bollox - probably your most uninformed post outside RAF ranks.

Pam 21 can only cover the ranges in it - when new types of ranges are developed or adopted and approved they may be covered separately prior to an amendment being made or the amendment could be issued as approval. Some may never be covered at all if they're likely to remain one-offs.

Why do you think Pam 21 and others such as 20 and 22, or now JSPs, are amended so regularly?

Dart ranges, for example, were in use prior to being in Pam 21 as they were originally covered by local regs - the Dart range in Gib being an example, as originally it was an 'experimental' range.

I didn't query your claim before that you used standard fig 11 and 12 tgts on the range in Gib, but the more I think about it the more unlikely this becomes as we used scaled down tgts to correctly represent the size the tgts would have appeared on a 300m range. How did you fire any APWTs or equivalents?

That would obviously have been impossible using standard targetry.

edit: as an example, one range in HK, a baffle range, was never covered by Pam 21 throughout its use, for a decade, as it was authorised and approved as a one off.
PaM21 pertained to the conduct of live firing, irrespective of range
 
Pam 21 can only cover the ranges in it
Does it ?

Is that why you thought Pam 21 was called '' Shoot to Kill ''

How does it manage to cover a piece of land in the hinterlands of a place like Archers Post in Kenya ? Where there were NO Ranges. ( When I was there )

There is a very good reason why it is called Pam 21 '' Planning, conducting & Supervision of firing '' Of course you wouldn't know anything about that as apparently your Milan Platoon Commanders Course did not cover any of those aspects.

Which is pretty amazing as I am assured by those who have actually done Milan Courses, DC's / Sect Comds & Milan 2i/c's that it is indeed covered, in depth, including Range letters, complete with traces and all other relevant information / details, which you EMPHATICALLY denied were a part of your course.
 
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