Army WO3s and RAF WO1s

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In a word (again) 'No'. NO!

As has been explained at enormous length, countless times, NO 'part of the course was PLANNING a live firing Exercise that would have consisted of Range Letters, traces, movement boxes, references and everything else that goes into the planning of a live firing exercise. Pam 21 - Shoot to Kill required.' NONE!!!

The live firing was a series of LFBLs ending on a fully staffed range (complete with an ATO!) engaging an MTT. In our case, for reasons I've explained, only two students did the BL, including a tab, and the rest of us just did the LF part. A few of us also did an additional different BL on another day, combined with a firepower demo, IIRC in the bowl.

Where? When? As covered at length already, I was a pl comd in Gib. The only range we used was a unique custom built 100m+ Dart range; I know Alamo says when he was there a decade later they used standard fig 11 & 12 targets, but obviously over 100m they'd have been three times the proper size.
When the Bn was on UK trg I was in Brunei. After that a JNCOs cadre, then A/tk pl and a tour in Dungannon, Crusader, Milan pl conversion, Spearhead, IO, UNFICYP, OC, and Londonderry. On return after three years, briefly, another JNCOs cadre in Fox Bay and UK Ops Offr while the bn prepared to move to Minden and I moved on. When TF do you think I ran a range??
When did you get the other 4 op theatres in? Was the bin men strike in 78 one of them?
 
Yes, really! It was a genuine question.
You can't think of a situation where you would be in the vicinity of one of your soldiers and a kettle?
No. Pl Accommodation in Gib was very 'old style' with a coy per floor and a sect per rm, inc NCOs. Invading uninvited would have been like developing a sudden interest in a football team. Guards were a pl in 4 Corners on the border (closed) with a pl regtl cook - no 'help yourself'. Ops Rms in NI we had u/18s as coy runners, ex-Jnrs, desperate to do something even if it was only make the best coffee they could.
How about during a welfare interview?
Never had one. Gib was a small place and pl /sect 'evenings' were regular, at least once a week, and if any wanted a chat it'd be over a beer in a bar, not for all to see in the shared office.
Or when they first joined the platoon?
40 years ago? With the pl comd inviting new recruits to 'come in, 'Bob', call me John, and make them a cup of tea? I don't think so!

It was simply different times / circumstances.
 
Can you clarify ?

You had 4 Milan Platoon's in 1 Battalion ?
We had four Milan Platoons in one Battalion yes. One in each Rifle Company and one in Support Company. We were 6 Airmobile Brigade, which was tasked as being Corps reserve. The idea was we would be choppered in somewhere to plug a breakthrough, hit the enemy with substantial Milan fire and bug out quick. Essentially anti armour ambush.

We were always sited to engage from the flanks and always at around near maximum range. Milan were sited first with the rifle companies sited around them for protection, rather than the other way round.
 
Got you.

The short lived trial that was 6 Airmobile Brigade.
It was a 4 year trial as intended. The 'trial' did not seem to be about the strategy or tactics of a Corps reserve but rather the RAF and it's ability to move fairly large numbers of men and equipment by helicopter. I'm sure lessons were learned but it would have been helpful if we were actually allocated some helicopters in the first place.

We usually moved by road. :oops:
 

Joker62

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It was a 4 year trial as intended. The 'trial' did not seem to be about the strategy or tactics of a Corps reserve but rather the RAF and it's ability to move fairly large numbers of men and equipment by helicopter. I'm sure lessons were learned but it would have been helpful if we were actually allocated some helicopters in the first place.

We usually moved by road. :oops:
Hence the term "helibedford"!
 
Really ??

Then how did they assess whether you were competent to plan, conduct and supervise Live Firing, which is a pretty big thing for the Milan Platoon Commander ?.
A pretty big thing"?

How? One of the few things we're agreed on is that all Milan LF's done on a concentration! Pls have never conducted their own.
 
In a word (again) 'No'. NO!

As has been explained at enormous length, countless times, NO 'part of the course was PLANNING a live firing Exercise that would have consisted of Range Letters, traces, movement boxes, references and everything else that goes into the planning of a live firing exercise. Pam 21 - Shoot to Kill required.' NONE!!!

The live firing was a series of LFBLs ending on a fully staffed range (complete with an ATO!) engaging an MTT. In our case, for reasons I've explained, only two students did the BL, including a tab, and the rest of us just did the LF part. A few of us also did an additional different BL on another day, combined with a firepower demo, IIRC in the bowl.

Where? When? As covered at length already, I was a pl comd in Gib. The only range we used was a unique custom built 100m+ Dart range; I know Alamo says when he was there a decade later they used standard fig 11 & 12 targets, but obviously over 100m they'd have been three times the proper size.
When the Bn was on UK trg I was in Brunei. After that a JNCOs cadre, then A/tk pl and a tour in Dungannon, Crusader, Milan pl conversion, Spearhead, IO, UNFICYP, OC, and Londonderry. On return after three years, briefly, another JNCOs cadre in Fox Bay and UK Ops Offr while the bn prepared to move to Minden and I moved on. When TF do you think I ran a range??
Doesn't matter what the range, PAM21 applied
 
As well as live firing on concentrations we conducted Milan live firing at Battalion level. Happened every year in Sennelager when we did our annual PWT's, 2 grenades, 2 84 rounds etc. We also ran Company live 'Battle runs' in Sennelager and Milan fired then as well.
 
It was a 4 year trial as intended. The 'trial' did not seem to be about the strategy or tactics of a Corps reserve but rather the RAF and it's ability to move fairly large numbers of men and equipment by helicopter. I'm sure lessons were learned but it would have been helpful if we were actually allocated some helicopters in the first place.

We usually moved by road. :oops:
By the end of the trial, 6Bde’s role had matured into forming the anvil around which the two armoured brigades in 3 Div would manoeuvre in a counter stroke operation. A lot of the strategy bit was war gamed or exercised on CPXs; exercising a divisional counter stroke on an FTX would have been something of a challenge. Iron Hammer in 88 would have been the first time UK forces had tried it since WW2. Great times; the level of training required was special.

Worth noting too that the Milan posts in 6 Bde were found by denuding UK battalions , hence my earlier dig at John for commanding six posts. I was wrong time wise but I think that’s how it ended up numbers wise late 80s.
 
Doesn't matter what the range, PAM21 applied
Absolute bollox - probably your most uninformed post outside RAF ranks.

Pam 21 can only cover the ranges in it - when new types of ranges are developed or adopted and approved they may be covered separately prior to an amendment being made or the amendment could be issued as approval. Some may never be covered at all if they're likely to remain one-offs.

Why do you think Pam 21 and others such as 20 and 22, or now JSPs, are amended so regularly?

Dart ranges, for example, were in use prior to being in Pam 21 as they were originally covered by local regs - the Dart range in Gib being an example, as originally it was an 'experimental' range.

I didn't query your claim before that you used standard fig 11 and 12 tgts on the range in Gib, but the more I think about it the more unlikely this becomes as we used scaled down tgts to correctly represent the size the tgts would have appeared on a 300m range. How did you fire any APWTs or equivalents?

That would obviously have been impossible using standard targetry.

edit: as an example, one range in HK, a baffle range, was never covered by Pam 21 throughout its use, for a decade, as it was authorised and approved as a one off.
 
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As well as live firing on concentrations we conducted Milan live firing at Battalion level. Happened every year in Sennelager when we did our annual PWT's, 2 grenades, 2 84 rounds etc. We also ran Company live 'Battle runs' in Sennelager and Milan fired then as well.
With that many FPs you would have had more in house than on some UK concentrations!

Were all the pls full Milan pls (24 posts)? Just wondering how manning for the rest of the bn was done, as that must have meant you were down nearly two rifle coys.
 
Worth noting too that the Milan posts in 6 Bde were found by denuding UK battalions , hence my earlier dig at John for commanding six posts. I was wrong time wise but I think that’s how it ended up numbers wise late 80s.
I find that unlikely as that would have meant major changes to the UK bn's orbats, which AFAIK never happened - and obviously it wouldn't have happened in bns that were roled to reinforce BAOR. Why would they not have just taken the FPs from either spare stock, which there must have been, or from TA HD bns?
 
A pretty big thing"?

How? One of the few things we're agreed on is that all Milan LF's done on a concentration! Pls have never conducted their own.
I made the mistake of believing dingerr when he said that Milan was only ever fired on concentrations, as I though he was only wrong about it not being fired on Milan cses at SWW.

Evidently he wasn't just wrong about the cses but was wrong completely as it was clearly routinely fired at BG and CT level as well.

Probably safer not to give any credibility to anything he says, as he claimed to be "the SME" on this.
 
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I find that unlikely as that would have meant major changes to the UK bn's orbats, which AFAIK never happened - and obviously it wouldn't have happened in bns that were roled to reinforce BAOR. Why would they not have just taken the FPs from either spare stock, which there must have been, or from TA HD bns?
There were changes in orbats to create the space for 3 Div to adopt its manoeuvre capability and to bring Warrior and Challenger in to service. The most obvious was Type 43 armoured regiments.

My recollection is of Type B wheeled infantry battalions converting mid to late 80s and having very little support weapon capability.

I could easily be wrong but I don’t think so. Late 80s we had armoured, mechanised (tracked, 432), mechanised (wheeled, Saxon), wheeled and air-mobile infantry all with different orbats....
 
j
There were changes in orbats to create the space for 3 Div to adopt its manoeuvre capability and to bring Warrior and Challenger in to service. The most obvious was Type 43 armoured regiments.

My recollection is of Type B wheeled infantry battalions converting mid to late 80s and having very little support weapon capability.

I could easily be wrong but I don’t think so. Late 80s we had armoured, mechanised (tracked, 432), mechanised (wheeled, Saxon), wheeled and air-mobile infantry all with different orbats....
I think we're talking at cross purposes.

What I'm saying is unlikely and you seem to be suggesting is what happened is that TA Home Def bns retained their Milan while reg inf bns lost theirs.
 
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