Army Veterans Facing murder charges over Bloody Sunday within two weeks

I can remember being told in the late 80s, early 90s by some retired VSO types that they reckoned a good few bodies where "planted" south of the border following Bloody Sunday...
Yeah, that obvious nonsense started circulating within about a week of Bloody Sunday, it's still doing the rounds of the JRC's and Cpls. Messes no doubt.
Another piece of idiocy was that the IRA had a store of dead bodies which they dragged out on BS to cover up what had "really happened", I actually heard that crap again from the wife of a former colleague who had been there on the day. An otherwise rational woman I might add, I had to sensitively and patiently explain to her that the City Coroner was unlikely to have been unable to tell the difference between a newly-deceased, still warm body and a cadaver that had been in a barn somewhere for an unspecified period. I didn't bother pointing out any of the other glaring faults in the theory.
 
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Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Yeah, that obvious nonsense started circulating within about a week of Bloody Sunday, it's still doing the rounds of the JRC's and Cpls. Messes no doubt.
Another piece of idiocy was that the IRA had a store of dead bodies which they dragged out on BS to cover up what had "really happened", I actually heard that crap again from the wife of a former colleague who had been there on the day. An otherwise rational woman I might add, I had to sensitively and patiently explain to her that the City Coroner was unlikely to have been unable to tell the difference between a newly-deceased, still warm body and a cadaver that had been in a barn somewhere for an unspecified period. I didn't bother pointing out any of the other glaring faults in the theory.
Would that be the same coroner who missed an entire head according to another tale?
 
It would be much harder for a Bloody Sunday type of cover up to happen today, imagine the volume of video clips, photos and witness accounts that would be hitting the social media sites.

Obviously if it was China then the sites would be shut down and witnesses rounded up and disappeared.

The authorities could get away with much more back in the 70's and the press mostly appear to have peddled the official version of events at the time.
 
Sunday Telegraph 19th May 2019

There is a full 2 page article about all this and an statute of limitations (current being worked on by Penny Mordant SoS For Defence.

Seems PM TM have been economical with the truth and a bit duplicitous, saying one thing in public and to MP`s and issuing memo`s and internal instruction to the contrary

Now there is talk of an statute of limitations for the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns (and I suspect others) with a 10 year period being mentioned unless there is significant and substantial evidence uncovered

Now here is the rub it will not apply to Northern Ireland - this can only be because of the GFA (Good Friday Agreement)

Now what with Brexit coming unstuck mainly because of the hard border and the GFA, one wonders what else has been signed away in the GFA that we the public have not been informed about (probably requires a thread of its own)

Archie
 
Sunday Telegraph 19th May 2019

There is a full 2 page article about all this and an statute of limitations (current being worked on by Penny Mordant SoS For Defence.

Seems PM TM have been economical with the truth and a bit duplicitous, saying one thing in public and to MP`s and issuing memo`s and internal instruction to the contrary

Now there is talk of an statute of limitations for the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns (and I suspect others) with a 10 year period being mentioned unless there is significant and substantial evidence uncovered

Now here is the rub it will not apply to Northern Ireland - this can only be because of the GFA (Good Friday Agreement)

Now what with Brexit coming unstuck mainly because of the hard border and the GFA, one wonders what else has been signed away in the GFA that we the public have not been informed about (probably requires a thread of its own)

Archie
The article suggests PMTM has sold out to the DUP and the Sinn Fein and has hung everyone out to dry. The impression I was left with was that a deal has been done that will never see the light of day.

Another sad day for the British Army at the hands of politicians.

Very sad
 
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What are the chances of getting a conviction on any of these charges? I seem to remember that the law regarding deaths caused by members of HM Forces in NI could only be dealt with, by charging with Man slaughter and this was only changed to murder in 1990. Cant remember the details though. Clearly there must have been so leeway in this, as the Pitchfork murder trial was way before this.
 

StBob072

LE
Book Reviewer
Haha, very true. UK institutions do seem to be managed by quite few idle, duplicitous, self-serving tosspots.
I think the difference between civilian and military promotion is that civilians are always advanced one step beyond what they are comfortably capable of, whereas in the military you have to show yourself capable of performing at a higher level before you are officially elevated to it.

A meritocracy.

What a wonderful thought.
 

StBob072

LE
Book Reviewer
The better the shot you are, the higher up the rank system you go.

Ouch.

I'm somewhat conflicted about this issue.

I cannot claim to have any first hand knowledge or personal investment in the "Soldier F" case (Stand down @stacker1 ) I can only speak as I see it - which is this: whatever happened, unlawful killing (if you like to call it that), this one man now in his 70s is being thrown out as an appeasement.

I don't buy into the whole "I stand with soldier F" thing, it's faintly embarrassing and sometimes attracts people who attach themselves to a cause for the wrong reasons. I was, however, at Portland Place outside the BBC yesterday, and a hell of a lot of respected veterans were getting behind this issue.

Make of that what you will.
 
Ouch.

I'm somewhat conflicted about this issue.

I cannot claim to have any first hand knowledge or personal investment in the "Soldier F" case (Stand down @stacker1 ) I can only speak as I see it - which is this: whatever happened, unlawful killing (if you like to call it that), this one man now in his 70s is being thrown out as an appeasement.

I don't buy into the whole "I stand with soldier F" thing, it's faintly embarrassing and sometimes attracts people who attach themselves to a cause for the wrong reasons. I was, however, at Portland Place outside the BBC yesterday, and a hell of a lot of respected veterans were getting behind this issue.

Make of that what you will.
Stand easy Rfn Bob. I am an ace with coax in a Chieftain. That does not make me a tank killer. I was rated as top grade when a gunner/ loader in a Challenger. A great laugh, but where did it get me....
 
Ouch.

I'm somewhat conflicted about this issue.

I cannot claim to have any first hand knowledge or personal investment in the "Soldier F" case (Stand down @stacker1 ) I can only speak as I see it - which is this: whatever happened, unlawful killing (if you like to call it that), this one man now in his 70s is being thrown out as an appeasement.

I don't buy into the whole "I stand with soldier F" thing, it's faintly embarrassing and sometimes attracts people who attach themselves to a cause for the wrong reasons. I was, however, at Portland Place outside the BBC yesterday, and a hell of a lot of respected veterans were getting behind this issue.

Make of that what you will.

Because those respected veterans, obviously recall the German Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller and his poem

Archie
 
Would that be the same coroner who missed an entire head according to another tale?
Probably, there were and still are a lot of stupid tales about BS knocking around.
It's amazing the crap some people will believe rather than simply confront the unpalatable truth.
 
What are the chances of getting a conviction on any of these charges? I seem to remember that the law regarding deaths caused by members of HM Forces in NI could only be dealt with, by charging with Man slaughter and this was only changed to murder in 1990.
Cant remember the details though. Clearly there must have been so leeway in this, as the Pitchfork murder trial was way before this.
[/quote]
Not so, apart from the Pitchfork murders a number of soldiers have been charged with murder and a few served sentences for it. Pte Ian Thain of the LI for one, and those two Scots Guardsmen, Wright and Fisher who were convicted of murder. Then there was Lee Clegg who went down for shooting the girl in the car? Thain was released after three years and re-joined the Army, likewise Wirght and Fisher, Clegg's conviction was subsequently overturned on appeal.
These guys were unlucky in my opinion, they just got it wrong under pressure. There are far more serious and troubling cases for which people have so far managed to avoid prosecution, and a few who were prosecuted and got away with it who clearly shouldn't have, the guy who killed Majella O Hare for one. In fairness to him though, that was probably a case of involuntary manslaughter or manslaughter by gross negligence (it's pretty obvious he had an ND). A pity he wasn't man enough to admit to it instead of simply lying through his teeth.
 
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Not so, apart from the Pitchfork murders a number of soldiers have been charged with murder and a few served sentences for it. Pte Ian Thain of the LI for one, and those two Scots Guardsmen, Wright and Fisher who were convicted of murder. Then there was Lee Clegg who went down for shooting the girl in the car? Thain was released after three years and re-joined the Army, likewise Wirght and Fisher, Clegg's conviction was subsequently overturned on appeal.
These guys were unlucky in my opinion, they just got it wrong under pressure. There are far more serious and troubling cases for which people have so far managed to avoid prosecution, and a few who were prosecuted and got away with it who clearly shouldn't have, the guy who killed Majella O Hare for one. In fairness to him though, that was probably a case of involuntary manslaughter or manslaughter by gross negligence (it's pretty obvious he had an ND). A pity he wasn't man enough to admit to it instead of simply lying through his teeth.[/QUOTE]

Were all those cases not post 1990?
 
Not so, apart from the Pitchfork murders a number of soldiers have been charged with murder and a few served sentences for it. Pte Ian Thain of the LI for one, and those two Scots Guardsmen, Wright and Fisher who were convicted of murder. Then there was Lee Clegg who went down for shooting the girl in the car? Thain was released after three years and re-joined the Army, likewise Wright and Fisher, Clegg's conviction was subsequently overturned on appeal.
These guys were unlucky in my opinion, they just got it wrong under pressure. There are far more serious and troubling cases for which people have so far managed to avoid prosecution, and a few who were prosecuted and got away with it who clearly shouldn't have, the guy who killed Majella O Hare for one. In fairness to him though, that was probably a case of involuntary manslaughter or manslaughter by gross negligence (it's pretty obvious he had an ND). A pity he wasn't man enough to admit to it instead of simply lying through his teeth.
Were all those cases not post 1990?[/QUOTE]

Majella O Hare was killed in 1978 and Thain's case was in 1984, Clegg's in 1990 and I believe the Wright and Fisher incident was in 1992.
 
Excuse my dimness, but wasn't an essential part of the Good Friday agreement an amnesty for past crimes and alleged crimes?
It was but the MOD got on it's high horse and declined an amnesty as it would be seen as giving terrorists parity with Crown Forces. I remember discussing it at the time the decision was made although it may not have been on this forum but the general consensus was that the decision would come back to bite us in the arse.
 

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