Army Veterans Facing murder charges over Bloody Sunday within two weeks

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
OK.


But you obviously think someone has or you wouldn't come up with inaccurate phrases such as this:

Unless you had an agenda.

Accuracy.
Not your strong point.
Er, no. It has been fairly conclusively proven that he shot the individuals he is charged with shooting (he is welcome to try denying this of course, not something most briefs would recommend), what the case will hang on is whether he was justified in shooting them.

Do try to keep up.
 
You know what? You accused me of having an agenda, and after thinking about it, perhaps I do.

You see Operation Banner to me was a catastrophe, what should have been a simple in-and-out having restored the peace in Belfast (as the Army had done previously in 1935 for instance) turned into a prolonged three-decade nightmare that cost the Army the best part of 800 men.

At the start of the operation the IRA was little more than an old boys' club armed with a few obsolete Thompsons and rusty Mausers, at the end of it they were one of the world's foremost terrorist groups armed with tons of high explosives, thousands of assault rifles and were within an ace of getting anti-aircraft missiles. They went from being unable to defend a street of Victorian two-up-two-downs in Belfast to almost wiping out the British government and routinely blasting the world's biggest financial centre into concrete rubble and shards of plate glass.

Now I ask myself, how the fark did that happen? How can it be that in 1969 Joan Connolly a mother of eight in her forties is making tea and sandwiches for the British Army (her own daughter married a soldier) and two years later the Paras are shooting her dead and describing her as an IRA machine gun operator (!!)?

What happened to change the situation? Are the Irish (sorry Northern Irish) just an impossible people, just a load of truculent morons who don't know a good thing when they see it? Or did someone in the British Army, and I don't mean the poor buggers on the street, screw up big time?

Is that a question worth asking? Do the families of those 800 dead men not deserve to know whether the High Command into whose tender care they entrusted their sons or husbands were a bunch of idiots who couldn't tell the difference between Aden and a part of the United Kingdom? By asking such a question am I already a suspect, probably a pinko Guardian reader or Fenian subversive?

My theory is the Army's senior ranks let themselves be suckered in by the Unionist government in Stormont into believing they had a simple old-fashioned post-colonial situation that would be sorted out by giving the fuzzy-wuzzies a good kicking and teaching them manners. And why not? The Unionists were sound chaps, they had names like Brooke and Chichester-Clarke, they were ex-Army themselves, they good tell a good yarn over a decent bottle of port, they knew the local scene, so much better than finding out what those dreadful Catholic chappies thought about it, what hey?

So the Army followed the Unionist playbook, disarm the Fenians (Falls curfew, failure) ok, lock them up without a trial (internment, failure) oh heck just shoot the buggers and be done with it (Bloody Sunday, need I add it?).

It is no surprise that Stormont was prorogued weeks after BS as Westminster realised that leaving a substantial portion of the frontline infantry of NATO's second-most powerful military in the hands of a load of hill-billy bigots in their Toytown parliament probably wasn't the wisest course of action.

That's who's to blame for Bloody Sunday, not NICRA, not the Paras, not even Soldier F, but idiots like General Ford who were itching to show Mad Mitch that there was still one last hurrah left in the End of Empire game.

Am I wrong? Perhaps I am, but how about coming up with logical, fact-based arguments and non-personal abuse and refuting my arguments that way, either that or just ignore me.
 
Best do away with all courts, right ?
You inbred lunatic.
You ain't no Buddhist, bruv.

E2A: Better men (possibly) have called me far worse (definitely).
 
Last edited:
With flat batteries IIRC
A lot of the stuff that Col. Qaddafi gave to the Provos was duff gear the Libyan armed forces were happy to get shot of, including Semtex that was beginning to weep. Still, the Provos were able to make use of quite a lot of it, I wouldn't have thought that it would have taken much for the devious buggers in South Armagh to get a battery working again, they proved themselves quite adept at improvising electronics as I recall.
 
A lot of the stuff that Col. Qaddafi gave to the Provos was duff gear the Libyan armed forces were happy to get shot of, including Semtex that was beginning to weep. Still, the Provos were able to make use of quite a lot of it, I wouldn't have thought that it would have taken much for the devious buggers in South Armagh to get a battery working again, they proved themselves quite adept at improvising electronics as I recall.
I don’t know where you are getting your information, but it’s incorrect.

No such thing as improvised electronics, just electronics.

Guided Weapons use batteries considerably more complex that AAs.
 
I don’t know where you are getting your information, but it’s incorrect.

No such thing as improvised electronics, just electronics.

Guided Weapons use batteries considerably more complex that AAs.
You know what dingerr? Clearly my posts get on your tits, I try to be civil and you just come across as someone with a big chip on each shoulder. Why don't you do both yourself and me a favour and just ignore me, eh?
 
Is that a question worth asking? Do the families of those 800 dead men not deserve to know whether the High Command into whose tender care they entrusted their sons or husbands were a bunch of idiots who couldn't tell the difference between Aden and a part of the United Kingdom? By asking such a question am I already a suspect, probably a pinko Guardian reader or Fenian subversive?
Yep.

Funny how the long Republican terrorist campaign is all the fault of the British Army, in your view. Nothing to do with those brave Republican terrorists proudly kneecapping their fellow Catholics, setting countless bombs to indiscriminately kill men, women and children, blowing up pubs and shopping centres, murdering policemen and their families.
 
You know what? You accused me of having an agenda, and after thinking about it, perhaps I do.

You see Operation Banner to me was a catastrophe, what should have been a simple in-and-out having restored the peace in Belfast (as the Army had done previously in 1935 for instance) turned into a prolonged three-decade nightmare that cost the Army the best part of 800 men.

At the start of the operation the IRA was little more than an old boys' club armed with a few obsolete Thompsons and rusty Mausers, at the end of it they were one of the world's foremost terrorist groups armed with tons of high explosives, thousands of assault rifles and were within an ace of getting anti-aircraft missiles. They went from being unable to defend a street of Victorian two-up-two-downs in Belfast to almost wiping out the British government and routinely blasting the world's biggest financial centre into concrete rubble and shards of plate glass.

Now I ask myself, how the fark did that happen? How can it be that in 1969 Joan Connolly a mother of eight in her forties is making tea and sandwiches for the British Army (her own daughter married a soldier) and two years later the Paras are shooting her dead and describing her as an IRA machine gun operator (!!)?

What happened to change the situation? Are the Irish (sorry Northern Irish) just an impossible people, just a load of truculent morons who don't know a good thing when they see it? Or did someone in the British Army, and I don't mean the poor buggers on the street, screw up big time?

Is that a question worth asking? Do the families of those 800 dead men not deserve to know whether the High Command into whose tender care they entrusted their sons or husbands were a bunch of idiots who couldn't tell the difference between Aden and a part of the United Kingdom? By asking such a question am I already a suspect, probably a pinko Guardian reader or Fenian subversive?

My theory is the Army's senior ranks let themselves be suckered in by the Unionist government in Stormont into believing they had a simple old-fashioned post-colonial situation that would be sorted out by giving the fuzzy-wuzzies a good kicking and teaching them manners. And why not? The Unionists were sound chaps, they had names like Brooke and Chichester-Clarke, they were ex-Army themselves, they good tell a good yarn over a decent bottle of port, they knew the local scene, so much better than finding out what those dreadful Catholic chappies thought about it, what hey?

So the Army followed the Unionist playbook, disarm the Fenians (Falls curfew, failure) ok, lock them up without a trial (internment, failure) oh heck just shoot the buggers and be done with it (Bloody Sunday, need I add it?).

It is no surprise that Stormont was prorogued weeks after BS as Westminster realised that leaving a substantial portion of the frontline infantry of NATO's second-most powerful military in the hands of a load of hill-billy bigots in their Toytown parliament probably wasn't the wisest course of action.

That's who's to blame for Bloody Sunday, not NICRA, not the Paras, not even Soldier F, but idiots like General Ford who were itching to show Mad Mitch that there was still one last hurrah left in the End of Empire game.

Am I wrong? Perhaps I am, but how about coming up with logical, fact-based arguments and non-personal abuse and refuting my arguments that way, either that or just ignore me.
Do you know why people think you have an agenda? You have just written a lengthy post on the origins/causes of the Troubles and not once do you even appear to consider that the terrorists may need to take some responsibility for it. The only other people that do that are Sinn Fein.
 
What a ridiculous post, not least because if the Afghanistan guy is who I think it is (Andy S?) he was murdered in his sleep by having a rock dropped on his head.

The events of Bloody Sunday have been gone over and over and over. In many ways, this thread is a nonsense because if Soldier F has a day of reckoning coming, it'll be in the courts and not on a web forum. The rest is just bumping gums.

I wasn't there; I was two years old when it happened. Some of those on ARRSE were; many, many of us weren't. I have though heard accounts from my father of his tour the following year and it was pretty harrowing.

Back in the day the IRA would still put out fighting patrols. At one stage my father got separated from his patrol, and was down to two rounds. It was one more for them and then gun under the chin and the last one for himself because he had seen what happened to those whom the Republicans got their hands on and wasn't going to suffer that fate.

Equally, he recalls being appalled at finding a young lad in a back alley who'd been given such a kicking that his intestines had come out of his backside. His crime? Being a Catholic (and no, it wasn't British troops who'd done it).

The Northern Ireland of the time was a desperate, horrible place. My father at least managed to retain a level opinion. Years later, when I was old enough to ask properly, I questioned him about what went on. He had rather more sympathy for the Catholic population than I'd ever expected. People forget that the Catholics were very much second-class citizens. They couldn't get jobs, decent housing and so on. Indeed, as an apprentice soldier I was taught how the first troops to deploy (Anglians) were there to protect the Catholic population.

But I guess none of that fits with the current revisionist push: all British soldiers were occupation forces and murderers, all Republicans freedom fighters. Many British soldiers, a good number of whom had seen action all over the world at that stage, remained empathetic individuals with families of their own. Had my father topped himself, he'd have left a widow and a toddler. Had I eventually learned the circumstances, I'd have understood.

My father did Claret operations in Borneo, losing a friend, and numerous other things. Even he remained troubled by what he saw in Northern Ireland. So-called 'hardened killers' were sickened by the realities of sectarian violence. As am I; but before we start flag-waving and singing songs, let's talk about The Disappeared and many other atrocities. On the other side, just as an example, you have the Shankill Butchers - and be clear I have no more sympathy for Unionist gangsters and criminals than I do for their Republican counterparts.

There were scum on both sides, and many young squaddies, despite the rhetoric, were just young lads pressed into a very shitty policing job.

All that said, it is very, VERY easy to hold forth on a forum such as this. It is very, very easy, with the safety of distance and a keyboard, to state how 'I'd have done differently if it were me'.

You simply don't know, and some of you should be ashamed of the hyperbole that you've indulged in.
 
Do you know why people think you have an agenda? You have just written a lengthy post on the origins/causes of the Troubles and not once do you even appear to consider that the terrorists may need to take some responsibility for it. The only other people that do that are Sinn Fein.
Oh for fuxache. Look just ignore me, it'll save you time.
 
The events of Bloody Sunday have been gone over and over and over. In many ways, this thread is a nonsense because if Soldier F has a day of reckoning coming, it'll be in the courts and not on a web forum. The rest is just bumping gums.
All that said, it is very, VERY easy to hold forth on a forum such as this. It is very, very easy, with the safety of distance and a keyboard, to state how 'I'd have done differently if it were me'.
Those two paras (no pun) at least are worth my 'like'. I have been biting my tongue on this thread but have still been following it closely.

We are different generations, you and I, you would have been in primary school when I was in NI but you are on the money. No disrespect was meant by 'karma'.
 
Oh for fuxache. Look just ignore me, it'll save you time.
It's pretty funny really. You repeatedly tell people to point out inaccuracies in your posts, then when they do you either pretend they didn't or tell them to put you on ignore. It's almost like you want to be able to keep pushing your 'agenda' without anyone disagreeing with you.
 
What a ridiculous post, not least because if the Afghanistan guy is who I think it is (Andy S?) he was murdered in his sleep by having a rock dropped on his head.

The events of Bloody Sunday have been gone over and over and over. In many ways, this thread is a nonsense because if Soldier F has a day of reckoning coming, it'll be in the courts and not on a web forum. The rest is just bumping gums.

I wasn't there; I was two years old when it happened. Some of those on ARRSE were; many, many of us weren't. I have though heard accounts from my father of his tour the following year and it was pretty harrowing.

Back in the day the IRA would still put out fighting patrols. At one stage my father got separated from his patrol, and was down to two rounds. It was one more for them and then gun under the chin and the last one for himself because he had seen what happened to those whom the Republicans got their hands on and wasn't going to suffer that fate.

Equally, he recalls being appalled at finding a young lad in a back alley who'd been given such a kicking that his intestines had come out of his backside. His crime? Being a Catholic (and no, it wasn't British troops who'd done it).

The Northern Ireland of the time was a desperate, horrible place. My father at least managed to retain a level opinion. Years later, when I was old enough to ask properly, I questioned him about what went on. He had rather more sympathy for the Catholic population than I'd ever expected. People forget that the Catholics were very much second-class citizens. They couldn't get jobs, decent housing and so on. Indeed, as an apprentice soldier I was taught how the first troops to deploy (Anglians) were there to protect the Catholic population.

But I guess none of that fits with the current revisionist push: all British soldiers were occupation forces and murderers, all Republicans freedom fighters. Many British soldiers, a good number of whom had seen action all over the world at that stage, remained empathetic individuals with families of their own. Had my father topped himself, he'd have left a widow and a toddler. Had I eventually learned the circumstances, I'd have understood.

My father did Claret operations in Borneo, losing a friend, and numerous other things. Even he remained troubled by what he saw in Northern Ireland. So-called 'hardened killers' were sickened by the realities of sectarian violence. As am I; but before we start flag-waving and singing songs, let's talk about The Disappeared and many other atrocities. On the other side, just as an example, you have the Shankill Butchers - and be clear I have no more sympathy for Unionist gangsters and criminals than I do for their Republican counterparts.

There were scum on both sides, and many young squaddies, despite the rhetoric, were just young lads pressed into a very shitty policing job.

All that said, it is very, VERY easy to hold forth on a forum such as this. It is very, very easy, with the safety of distance and a keyboard, to state how 'I'd have done differently if it were me'.

You simply don't know, and some of you should be ashamed of the hyperbole that you've indulged in.
Good post
 
Oh for fuxache. Look just ignore me, it'll save you time.
As @LEGZ30 has already noted, you say you want your argument to be challenged with facts, then when someone challenges it you get huffy and tell them to put you on ignore. You need to make up your mind.

Or could it be you just want to have your say and not have it challenged? Perish the thought.

Regardless, your biased opinion on Northern Ireland is not something I can leave unanswered.
 
You know what dingerr? Clearly my posts get on your tits, I try to be civil and you just come across as someone with a big chip on each shoulder. Why don't you do both yourself and me a favour and just ignore me, eh?
Are you ever going to answer his question about if you ever served? In the army though, being a provo doesn’t count as serving btw......
 

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