Army Veterans Facing murder charges over Bloody Sunday within two weeks

Well............ as the population was about two thirds Protestant at the time a fairer ratio would have been about 3784 Protestants :)
You'd have been lifting the remnants of the 36th Ulster Division then, judging by the intel used to lift Republicans for internment at the start.
 
Can you all get amongst yourselves and decide if Soldier F has committed no crime, as he was only doing his duty or he needs amnesty from crimes committed, thankyouverymuch.
 
Can you all get amongst yourselves and decide if Soldier F has committed no crime, as he was only doing his duty or he needs amnesty from crimes committed, thankyouverymuch.
It's Northern Ireland.. we're trying to work out if he's a Prod or a Taig first. How close are his eye's together?
 
Only if 5% is 'plenty'.
You can throw my neighbour back in if you want to even the numbers up.. his Dogs a noisey bastard.
 
Have to admit that in all other respects, JAB, was relentless during that tour in leading his team to an extraordinary number of finds.
He was indeed, and his subordinates under his command, particularly in the KOSB, learned from him which added to the Bn's successes in later tours.
I rate him as the finest counter terrorist operator of his generation.
A marvelous guy and a good friend taken far too soon.
 
Lot 655, 16 December 2003 | Dix Noonan Webb
A Good Series of Awards to Members of the S.A.S.
The extremely rare Northern Ireland M.B.E., M.C. group of four awarded to Lieutenant-Colonel J. A. “Tony” Ball, C.O. of The Sultan of Oman’s Special Force, late King’s Own Scottish Borderers, the Parachute Regiment and the Special Air Service Regiment

The Order of the British Empire, M.B.E. (Military), type 2, the reverse of the crown suspension inscribed ‘J.A.B.’; Military Cross, E.II.R., the reverse officially dated ‘1973’ and additionally inscribed ‘Capt. J. A. Ball (489891) K.O.S.B.’; General Service 1962, 3 clasps, Borneo, South Arabia, Northern Ireland, with M.I.D. oak leaf (23854005 Tpr. J. A. Ball, S.A.S.); U.N. Cyprus, privately named on the reverse, mounted as worn, very fine or better (4) £12,000-15,000
Footnote
Ex Sotheby’s, 2 July 1987 (Lot 520) and Dix Noonan Webb, 25 March 1997 (Lot 601).

M.B.E. London Gazette 15 April 1980: ‘In recognition of distinguished service in Northern Ireland during the period 1 August 1979 to 31 October 1979.’

M.C. London Gazette 20 February 1973: ‘In recognition of distinguished service in Northern Ireland during the period 1 May 1972 to 31 July 1972.’

M.I.D. London Gazette 30 September 1975: ‘In recognition of distinguished service in Northern Ireland during the period 1 February 1975 to 30 April 1975.’

Julian Anthony “Tony” Ball served as a Trooper in the S.A.S. in Borneo and subsequently for one tour in Northern Ireland. Commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant into the King’s Own Scottish Borderers in 1970, he won the Military Cross with them in Northern Ireland, while serving with the Reconnaissance Platoon - according to various cuttings sold with the Lot, the M.C. was awarded in respect of a series of incidents with gunmen on the streets of Belfast.

Ball was subsequently selected to serve with 14 Intelligence Company in 1974, and, now a Captain, commanded 3 Brigade Detachment of that Company in Northern Ireland, with Lieutenant Robert Nairac (later awarded the posthumous George Cross) as his second in command. His work as commander of the small undercover S.A.S. team, stationed at Castledillon, is both controversial and shrouded in mystery. Several recent publications and television programmes have exposed details of various “dirty tricks” operations allegedly carried out by Ball and Nairac, not least the assassination of a prominent I.R.A. commander in January 1975 : apparently they drove over the border, awaited his return to his farmhouse, and then burst in and emptied the contents of their pistols into him. The same source also alleges that on another occasion Ball “snatched” an I.R.A. man at gunpoint in the Republic, and brought him back to the North for trial.

Whatever the truth behind this period of Ball’s career in Northern Ireland, he was awarded a ‘mention’ and the M.B.E.

Resigning his commission in the British Army in 1980 to take up an appointment as Commanding Officer of the Sultan of Oman’s Special Force, in the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel, Ball was killed in Oman on 2 May 1981, when his Range Rover overturned en-route to Thumrait, an Air Force Base in Dhofar. For these tragically short-lived services, Ball won entitlement to the Omani Peace Medal with an actice service clasp for ‘Dhofar’.

On his death a fellow officer wrote of “Tony” Ball:

‘These words are obviously one man’s opinion of a fellow officer and soldier. Tony was a slim, thin faced individual who had an excess of nervous energy. He constantly smoked Capstan Plain cigarettes and this was almost his trademark. He was awarded his M.C. with, I think, the K.O.S.B. while working in Ulster as a Battalion officer. I first met Tony when I joined 22 S.A.S. and he was on the staff of the Counter Revolutionary Warfare (C.R.W.) Wing. We worked together training personnel for the Army Surveillance Organisation which operated under cover in Ulster. He had an affinity with this sort of work. When Harold Wilson directed 22 S.A.S. to send personnel to Ulster in 1976, Tony commanded the first small element. This was a particularly trying time for the S.A.S. because of the animosity from the Regular Army, who saw Ulster as their domain, and the lack of support from people within the S.A.S. Group itself, elements of which were petrified that we would start shooting everything and everybody. During this first tour, Tony lived in a small room in Bess Brook Mill (The Submarine) with another officer who will tell of being kept awake by Tony’s regular nightmares. The success of this small group first deployed by 22 S.A.S. was directly attributable to Tony Ball’s direct and aggressive leadership. He was not afraid of authority and would frequently bend the rules if he thought it necessary.

Tony returned to Ulster later to work in the headquarters at Lisburn where he was responsible for co-ordinating the operations of the numerous police, military and government surveillance organisations working there. As you can imagine, there was a great deal of information coming in about terrorist organisations and this had to be converted into intelligence so that “executive” elements could be suitably targeted. The recent S.A.S. success against the I.R.A. in Loughall was an example of this type of co-ordination. Tony did not feel he had a future in the British Army, he always felt that his N.C.O. background was held against him, and so he left and joined the Sultan’s Special Forces. He had just started making his mark there when he met his death. He was driving Andrew Nightingale, the stand-in C.O., to the airport and they took a bend too fast or had a puncture and the Range Rover rolled killing them both. I do not think Tony was totally happy within himself and this was conveyed in his hyperactive, almost nervous, dispositions, nevertheless he was a good man to work with and could always be relied upon in a tight situation. A man to go to war with!’

The lot is sold with a number of copied photographs and newspaper cuttings, together with a letter from the 2 I.C. Sultan’s Special Force, who served with Ball in the S.A.S.
He was a Man among Men!

XXV.
 
107 is still plenty weighed against the original claim of none.
Nonsense!

I said very clearly "Then again when internment was launched, who did the Army scoop? Yup, the Fenians again, nary a Prod got his collar felt" and that is absolutely correct.

It was almost a year and a half, a year and a half!, before they got around to scooping Prods.

Throughout the horrendous year of 1972 when the loyalists were killing Catholics like Billy-Oh no one gave any thought to interning any of them?

The defence that is usually put out that "well, the loyalists weren't actually causing any bother at that particular time" is also balderdash. Posters on this very thread have implied that the Paras weren't responsible for all the deaths at Ballymurphy because loyalists shot the victims.

So loyalists posed no threat worthy of getting them interned but here we are on the very day after internment being introduced and the Huns are slotting grannies, D-Day veterans and popish preachers with gay abandon?

Three months after internment the loyalists were responsible for the biggest massacre up to that point at McGurk's bar (which Stormont and their slavish adherents at the Army Press Office alleged was a PIRA own goal) and STILL no loyalists were interned!

Mate if you want to debate me on the historical facts of the Troubles you'll need to do better than coming up with stories from your pal next door.
 
But not among the snobs

"Tony did not feel he had a future in the British Army, he always felt that his N.C.O. background was held against
I believe that was written by the late Clive Fairweather who, like JAB had been commissioned from the ranks. They had both served with the Hereford gun club prior to commissioning, but are reported to have disliked each other. Both also had a connection with the late Robert Nairac - JAB as his OC while serving with NITAT(NI) in 74 anf Fairweather as Nairac's immediate supervisor (GSO2 Int) when RLN was SAS Liaison in 76/77
 
Last edited:
Can you all get amongst yourselves and decide if Soldier F has committed no crime, as he was only doing his duty or he needs amnesty from crimes committed, thankyouverymuch.
Whether he is ever convicted in a court I think most people, who have read the many, many accounts of his behaviour during the shooting and the disgusting way he abused prisoners later, would agree that he's a particularly unpleasant piece of work.

The smug grin on his face in the photo taken only an hour or two after he calmly put lethal rounds into the backside of a man crawling away from him and the head of an old man trying to help the previous victim says volumes about him.

Given the large amount of information released in the Saville Inquiry about him he is very easily identified (just for the record, lest I be accused of trying to expose him, everyone in the IRA knows the names of everyone of the Paras involved and have done for decades). I myself was able to get his full name and service number from openly available government websites, it would be interesting whether anyone here has come across him in their time (this forum is a small world and I am pretty sure quite a few regulars here would know him) and what their opinion of the bloke is.

It's also interesting that he was a comrade of Costas Georgiou, that the two notorious mass-killers "Colonel Callan" and Lance-Corporal F were both in the same unit at the same time indicates that there were serious disciplinary problems in that unit, and whether F should carry all the blame for what happened on Bloody Sunday, General Ford should certainly have been held accountable for gleefully using such a unit in such an extremely delicate situation.
 
Whether he is ever convicted in a court I think most people, who have read the many, many accounts of his behaviour during the shooting and the disgusting way he abused prisoners later, would agree that he's a particularly unpleasant piece of work.
Is he though? Or is he a ‘victim’ of the circumstances of the time and attitudes that prevailed.

What has his conduct been outside the armed forces? Has he killed anyone, been a threat.

I’ll admit to being a little torn on this. I believe in the rule of law, I believe in justice, but there is no denying that sometimes the law is an ass.

I keep comparing this to that of Charles De Menezes - The CPS did not have enough evidence to prosecute the officers directly concerned of murder. They undoubtedly killed him and had done so with the intent to do so, but murder requires the perpetrator to act unlawfully and this must have been the sticking point for the CPS.

The Police Commissioners office were subsequently for for failing in its duty of care to CDM.

I feel Bloody Sunday and all other suspect incidents of that era are primarily the fault of establishment. Soldier F cannot rely on the Nuremberg defence, but if he was misled into believing he or others would be under direct threat, regardless if that is true or not, then has he acted unlawfully?

If it can be shown that he has acted maliciously, he would be punished. However the MoD should shoulder a large proportion if not all of the blame.
 
Is he though? Or is he a ‘victim’ of the circumstances of the time and attitudes that prevailed.

What has his conduct been outside the armed forces? Has he killed anyone, been a threat.

I’ll admit to being a little torn on this. I believe in the rule of law, I believe in justice, but there is no denying that sometimes the law is an ass.
I think his abusive behaviour toward the prisoners in Fort George in the hours after the shooting (quite apart from his shit-eating grin in the photos) indicate he wasn't a poor wee squaddie who just lost control of himself for a crazy few seconds, he was a thug and knew damn well what he was doing and enjoyed doing it. Perhaps it's no surprise to discover that he was a big game hunter, why not? He had shown himself to be a cool hunter of the biggest game.

It was reported that Lt. Col. Wilford was overheard saying to his Sergeant Major, immediately after the shooting in Glenfada Park that F and Soldier H would need to be packed off to the SAS, where they promptly went a few months later. F was to retire from the SAS in 1988 as a Warrant Officer, he was no frightened little boy, I think we can be fairly certain of that.

However the MoD should shoulder a large proportion if not all of the blame.
Undoubtedly.

I have said Gen. Ford should have been hauled over the coals for his gung-ho decision to send the Paras into Derry (he should have been cashiered for his memo suggesting that the ringleaders of the DYHs should have been shot written prior to BS, that alone told you his attitude to what needed to be done in Derry).

However, even after the events the MoD should have taken action. It has been pointed out that Widgery was not quite the whitewash it is often regarded as. Widgery, in the subtle, understated language of a patrician jurist made it clear to anyone who was prepared to listen that he thought that the men in Glenfada needed sorting out. Unfortunately no one in the government was listening, they just heard the answer they wanted and thought "Phew, we got over that, now let's all just forget about this unpleasant business shall we?"

When F was questioned at Saville, he said he had never received a reprimand for his behaviour, indeed the first he ever heard about Widgery's (mild) criticism of his actions appeared to be at Saville and he was quite surprised by them.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
Whether he is ever convicted in a court I think most people, who have read the many, many accounts of his behaviour during the shooting and the disgusting way he abused prisoners later, would agree that he's a particularly unpleasant piece of work.

The smug grin on his face in the photo taken only an hour or two after he calmly put lethal rounds into the backside of a man crawling away from him and the head of an old man trying to help the previous victim says volumes about him.

Given the large amount of information released in the Saville Inquiry about him he is very easily identified (just for the record, lest I be accused of trying to expose him, everyone in the IRA knows the names of everyone of the Paras involved and have done for decades). I myself was able to get his full name and service number from openly available government websites, it would be interesting whether anyone here has come across him in their time (this forum is a small world and I am pretty sure quite a few regulars here would know him) and what their opinion of the bloke is.

It's also interesting that he was a comrade of Costas Georgiou, that the two notorious mass-killers "Colonel Callan" and Lance-Corporal F were both in the same unit at the same time indicates that there were serious disciplinary problems in that unit, and whether F should carry all the blame for what happened on Bloody Sunday, General Ford should certainly have been held accountable for gleefully using such a unit in such an extremely delicate situation.
I think his abusive behaviour toward the prisoners in Fort George in the hours after the shooting (quite apart from his shit-eating grin in the photos) indicate he wasn't a poor wee squaddie who just lost control of himself for a crazy few seconds, he was a thug and knew damn well what he was doing and enjoyed doing it. Perhaps it's no surprise to discover that he was a big game hunter, why not? He had shown himself to be a cool hunter of the biggest game.

It was reported that Lt. Col. Wilford was overheard saying to his Sergeant Major, immediately after the shooting in Glenfada Park that F and Soldier H would need to be packed off to the SAS, where they promptly went a few months later. F was to retire from the SAS in 1988 as a Warrant Officer, he was no frightened little boy, I think we can be fairly certain of that.



Undoubtedly.

I have said Gen. Ford should have been hauled over the coals for his gung-ho decision to send the Paras into Derry (he should have been cashiered for his memo suggesting that the ringleaders of the DYHs should have been shot written prior to BS, that alone told you his attitude to what needed to be done in Derry).

However, even after the events the MoD should have taken action. It has been pointed out that Widgery was not quite the whitewash it is often regarded as. Widgery, in the subtle, understated language of a patrician jurist made it clear to anyone who was prepared to listen that he thought that the men in Glenfada needed sorting out. Unfortunately no one in the government was listening, they just heard the answer they wanted and thought "Phew, we got over that, now let's all just forget about this unpleasant business shall we?"

When F was questioned at Saville, he said he had never received a reprimand for his behaviour, indeed the first he ever heard about Widgery's (mild) criticism of his actions appeared to be at Saville and he was quite surprised by them.
Your posts make for interesting reading.
Impartial observers would be excused for imagining you have an agenda.
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I keep comparing this to that of Charles De Menezes
You shouldn't. The cases have almost no similarities other than a member of British security forces shooting a civilian.

The Menezes case involved someone being shot because there was a genuine belief that he posed a threat and was therefore a legitimate target. This error was created by a series of institutional procedural faliures and the shooter made the correct decision based on the information he had at the time.

Soldier F knowingly shot a number of people who never presented themselves as a threat and he cannot have believed were legitimate targets. Whatever the validity of the intelligence on the day, he chose to fire at some people who clearly weren't targets (even if he thought some were). Unlike in the Menezes case, he didn't make the correct decision based on the information he had at the time and that's all that matters for a murder conviction.

but if he was misled into believing he or others would be under direct threat, regardless if that is true or not, then has he acted unlawfully?
Yes. The law requires, and required at the time, that you identify an individual as a threat before shooting them. Firing into a crowd or at civilians because you (however genuinely) believe there's a threat somewhere out there is still illegal.
 
Last edited:

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer

Latest Threads

Top