Army Veterans Facing murder charges over Bloody Sunday within two weeks

what ever the orders were on the day, someone must have given the command to fire?
Cease fire
By virtue of the fact that there’s not enough evidence to put anyone in the dock.
Up to a point, the evidence exists, it’s yet to
When you could/couldn't fire at vehicles still wasn't that clear at the time of the Clegg incident. The Yellow Card was amended in an attempt to make it clearer after his trial.
I would disagree on that point. I was on NI at the time and it was absolutely clear that failure to stop at a VCP including crashing through was not grounds for opening fire.

From the NIREPS at the tome it was clear that in Belfast the RUC were opening fire in a few occasions, further ISTR the RM had Marine shot by his patrol when they shot at a car. More relevant and often not mentioned is that 1 PARA had a soldier run over by a joy rider shortly before the Lee Clegg incident, which may have influenced the patrol’s reaction. Some will recall a TV documentary which showed the cook house decorated for Christmas and a cardboard car with a caption along the lines of ‘built by robots, driven by joyriders, stopped by C (?) Company’
 
No, you are simply backing the wrong horse.

Sorry for the big words and long sentences but it was the Times. :)
Bless. You seem determined to project your own feelings of inadequacy onto others.
 
Striclty speaking a few head-the-balls, led by the late Reverend Doctor Ian Kyle Paisley and the late Major Ronnie Bunting could be said to have kickstarted the whole process. Ironic that Maj Bunting's son was a founder member of INLA.
Paisley kept it going for many years. In my opinion he sent young men from my community to jail before washing his hands of them when they crossed the gates of Long Kesh.
He'll always be regarded as a cnut in my house.
 
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Does your government have nothing better to do??
Brexit is bad enough, but this is a bit of a kick to the nuts. I can't see this doing much for the British Army besides opening up Pandora's box.

You might as well apply for political asylum now.
Why would they apply for asylum in a country doing far worse?

So many Americans have the knack of being completely oblivious to how their own country is fairing.
However for an Army that has such a lack of discipline that its troops go on mass civilian spree-killings during every jaunt (from Vietnam to Iraq and Afghan), it could well do with some far-better trained ex-pat Brits in its ranks...
 
Why would they apply for asylum in a country doing far worse?

So many Americans have the knack of being completely oblivious to how their own country is fairing.
However for an Army that has such a lack of discipline that its troops go on mass civilian spree-killings during every jaunt (from Vietnam to Iraq and Afghan), it could well do with some far-better trained ex-pat Brits in its ranks...
You must be smoking some great stuff.
I will leave you to it.
 
I guess it’s hard to explain to an American, but if we consider doctrine, it may give an indication.

British military doctrine: hearts and minds.

US Military doctrine: Bomb them back to the Stone Age.
 
At the time soldiers were expected to fire into the ranks of rioters who had any sort of weapon.
Firing over their heads put people possibly not involved in danger.
From an officers guide book I read many moons ago and from when we still had an Empire.
The drill for "Shoot the man in the red T-Shirt (n.b. because he's a ringleader, stirring up the crowd)" was still being taught, at RMAS anyway, as late as 1974, and was probably in the IS handbook for years after that. But it relied on an officer clearly identifying and indicating a target. It was never appropriate in NI.
 
I guess it’s hard to explain to an American, but if we consider doctrine, it may give an indication.

British military doctrine: hearts and minds.

US Military doctrine: Bomb them back to the Stone Age.
I thought it was “Softly softly”.

Hearts and minds goes back to Vietnam.

And If you grab them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow.
 
I guess it’s hard to explain to an American, but if we consider doctrine, it may give an indication.

British military doctrine: hearts and minds.

US Military doctrine: Bomb them back to the Stone Age.
It seemed to me that only a single HERRICK was led by a grown-up who made any serious effort at the former. The remainder defaulted to the latter, and TELIC Ph4 was likewise a 'fail', so that old line - with which I once would have fully concurred, is but wishful nostalgic thinking.
 
No one in their right mind would join the forces now. Obey orders today, prosecution years later. Insane and disgusting.

I tend to agree, up to a point, like everything covered by mass media, once the initial event has been covered, and a solution-verdict has been reached, the media move on, and the great unwashed latch on to the next big exposé stewed up beyond all recognition by the media, not so the ex military community, or serving soldiers, they do not forget. Any young person intent on taking the queens shilling, will do, irrespective of opinion, or on going judicial hearings. The Amritsar massacre by British and colonial troops in 1919 where 379 innocent civilians were shot down in cold blood, did not stop recruitment into the army, and I do think after a cooling down period, the same will happen, once the sacrificial lamb has been slaughtered, and appeased the relatives and friends of those that died, all will return to what passes for normal, but I suspect that like the 300+ years of problems that culminated in the shootings, it will not go away any time soon.
 
I would disagree on that point. I was on NI at the time and it was absolutely clear that failure to stop at a VCP including crashing through was not grounds for opening fire.

From the NIREPS at the tome it was clear that in Belfast the RUC were opening fire in a few occasions, further ISTR the RM had Marine shot by his patrol when they shot at a car. More relevant and often not mentioned is that 1 PARA had a soldier run over by a joy rider shortly before the Lee Clegg incident, which may have influenced the patrol’s reaction. Some will recall a TV documentary which showed the cook house decorated for Christmas and a cardboard car with a caption along the lines of ‘built by robots, driven by joyriders, stopped by C (?) Company’
At Clegg's appeal the Judge criticised the way the Yellow Card was worded and it was subsequently changed. ROE training at that point in time was not good. Some instructors did a decent job with the limited material/training they received but others were terrible. It wasn't until the late '90s that the Army started providing decent UoF training for NI and the difference between the JTT package and what had gone before was vast.

I was the same age and rank as Clegg at the time and his multiple was actually under OPCON of our Battalion. I believed that if a car hit one of us and failed to stop we could engage. My team came very, very close to firing on joyriders in the Ardoyne that swerved onto the pavement and nearly hit one of us just a few weeks after the Clegg incident.
 
If this guy is to be charged with murder, and we accept the definition of murder to be
"Murder is defined, at common law rather than by statute, as the unlawful killing of a reasonable person in being under the King or Queen's peace with malice aforethought express or implied."
Then unless "malice aforethought" can be proven, it's case dismissed surely?
 
I tend to agree, up to a point, like everything covered by mass media, once the initial event has been covered, and a solution-verdict has been reached, the media move on, and the great unwashed latch on to the next big exposé stewed up beyond all recognition by the media, not so the ex military community, or serving soldiers, they do not forget. Any young person intent on taking the queens shilling, will do, irrespective of opinion, or on going judicial hearings. The Amritsar massacre by British and colonial troops in 1919 where 379 innocent civilians were shot down in cold blood, did not stop recruitment into the army, and I do think after a cooling down period, the same will happen, once the sacrificial lamb has been slaughtered, and appeased the relatives and friends of those that died, all will return to what passes for normal, but I suspect that like the 300+ years of problems that culminated in the shootings, it will not go away any time soon.

There weren't any British troops involved at Amritsar, all the shooting was done by soldiers of the Indian Army, even Dyer was Indian Army and not British Army.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
If this guy is to be charged with murder, and we accept the definition of murder to be
"Murder is defined, at common law rather than by statute, as the unlawful killing of a reasonable person in being under the King or Queen's peace with malice aforethought express or implied."
Then unless "malice aforethought" can be proven, it's case dismissed surely?
Was a weapon pointed at someone, was a weapon fired at someone, did the bullet hit anyone, like the person the weapon was pointed at. There’s your malice aforethought. It doesn’t start when someone wakes up that morning.
 

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