ARMY TO LIMIT FOREIGN RECRUITS

#2
About bloody time, But is it a coincidence that we are now facing a recession and that we should see a surge in British recruitment? They probably wouldn't be so keen otherwise.
 

Command_doh

LE
Book Reviewer
#3
Yeah, they do nothing when we are in a boom, and make a fanfare of it when we are on the greasy poll to economic oblivion. To be fair though, a lot of brass have mean mentioning caps on foreign recruits. Whilst not wishing to generalise, some groups do bring a lot of administrativ, cultural/tribal, or other problems with them. And we are also in danger of being mistaken for the British Foreign Legion the way numbers have increased exponentially in recent years.
 
#4
I think it's only right and proper. If the job market circumstances change, so should recruitment policy.

Recruit from abroad when there are enough good civilian jobs to reduce volunteer rate amongst UK citizens, increase it when the job market worsens.

How else would you want it?

I suppose the ideal (i.e., the army pays so well it can recruit in a booming economy) is just not feasible. If there are potential soldiers from abroad the choice will always be foreign recruits or undermanning.
 
#5
My recollection of the previous wave of Fijians,was that they were excellent soldiers.Hopefully the latest wave will be as good.
 
#8
Friendly_Fire said:
And why is this in the PQO / RAMC / QA forum?
From the link

Radio 4's PM programme has discovered three units will be asked to employ a maximum of 15% foreign nationals.

They are the Royal Logistics Corps, the Royal Army Dental Corps and the Queen Alexandra's Royal Army Nursing Corps.
 
#9
Interesting that they have the QARANC down as limiting themselves to 15% foreign nationals. I wonder how many nurses and HCAs in the NHS (as a %) are foreign nationals?

Is it realistic for that Corps to limit themselves?
 
#10
Azrael2006 said:
Interesting that they have the QARANC down as limiting themselves to 15% foreign nationals. I wonder how many nurses and HCAs in the NHS (as a %) are foreign nationals?

Is it realistic for that Corps to limit themselves?
A little while back now, but the last manning presentation I went to listed QARANC as the most under-recruited corps in the Army.
 
#12
From the BBC news article:

You can always make up extra infantry by bringing in new units and so on, but if you have a dental service or a medical service it's very difficult to make up numbers quickly.
This is b0llocks, isn't it? Surely the closer your army needed skillset is to a civilian one, the easier it is to bring you in (the PQO route for medics, ALS etc formalises this for officers)? So, surely, it is (or 'should be') quicker to bring a qualified civvy nurse, dental technician etc in than to do the same with the PBI?

I appreciate that the more front-line roles need more military skills but, IIRC, we actually had civvie contract nurses (as well as reg & TA) in the field hospital in Basra? Not suggesting that we should rely on contract staff rather than service personnel but it does show, at the limits, what you can get away with if you have to.

Happy to be shot down - I'm not a medic but am SGRS specialist TA and we do exactly that - bringing people in with the relevant professional skills and providing them with the mil training they need.
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
#13
Azrael2006 said:
Interesting that they have the QARANC down as limiting themselves to 15% foreign nationals. I wonder how many nurses and HCAs in the NHS (as a %) are foreign nationals?

Is it realistic for that Corps to limit themselves?
I understand from my sister, a nurse in Cambridgeshire, that there is a cap on recruitment of foreign nurses in the NHS, and even on the promotion of foreign nurses who are already here into vacancies which arise.

Given that the average age of British Nurses is 45 years, this is a cause for concern, I'd say.

And I don't actually support the recruitment of qualified nurses from overseas; it's not fair on their countries who have paid to train them and lose a valuable resource. I would support an increase in trainee places inthe UK for UK residents though.
 
#14
muhandis89 said:
My recollection of the previous wave of Fijians,was that they were excellent soldiers.Hopefully the latest wave will be as good.
I have heard the same from my Boss (ex RMP!).

We seem to have every nation under the sun in the British Army, there are at least 2 Russians that I know of! Perhaps if we reduced the number of foreign nationals in the Army too much there would be nobody left!
 
#16
Azrael2006 said:
Interesting that they have the QARANC down as limiting themselves to 15% foreign nationals. I wonder how many nurses and HCAs in the NHS (as a %) are foreign nationals?

Is it realistic for that Corps to limit themselves?
According to the most recent Migrationwatch data which relates to 2002/3 it was 9% then for nurses.

Even at the level of immigration of foreign nurses then (has gone down significantly now as the NHS are being firmly discouraged from removing all the nurses from (for example) the Philippine health system) this was barely enough to keep up with the number of UK nurses leaving the register, whether retiring or emigrating.

There are noticeably more foreign mnurses working in private sector mental health hospitals particularly, a good proportion of these being from sub Saharan Africa.
 
#17
Idrach said:
From the BBC news article:

You can always make up extra infantry by bringing in new units and so on, but if you have a dental service or a medical service it's very difficult to make up numbers quickly.
This is b0llocks, isn't it? Surely the closer your army needed skillset is to a civilian one, the easier it is to bring you in (the PQO route for medics, ALS etc formalises this for officers)? So, surely, it is (or 'should be') quicker to bring a qualified civvy nurse, dental technician etc in than to do the same with the PBI?

I appreciate that the more front-line roles need more military skills but, IIRC, we actually had civvie contract nurses (as well as reg & TA) in the field hospital in Basra? Not suggesting that we should rely on contract staff rather than service personnel but it does show, at the limits, what you can get away with if you have to.

Happy to be shot down - I'm not a medic but am SGRS specialist TA and we do exactly that - bringing people in with the relevant professional skills and providing them with the mil training they need.
Well, yes and no. Whilst you are right in principle, it's a little more complicated in practice. It is true that there is a pool of trained healthcare staff in the NHS and private sector, but this is not the same thing as getting them to join.

I will deal with the area that I am most familiar with (nursing) but I suspect that similar problems apply in the other health care professions. As noted above, a fair proportion of the nursing workforce is automatically ineligible for military recruitment on the grounds of nationality, residency, etc. Not that it's impossible, just very difficult. Secondly, the demographic pattern of nurse training recruitment in the NHS has changed in recent years. Whilst there are still a lot of 18 year olds who have just left sixth form, many students are now in their 30s or even 40s, married and with children i.e. not necessarily inclined to join the military. (A very small proportion of the 18 year olds have traditionally done so anyway.) A third factor is that military wages, which look good on paper compared to the NHS, are not actually that competitive when unsocial hours payments, etc are placed on top of basic pay. I was involved in a sift for a board recently for two direct entry nursing posts. A large number of the applicants were ineligible or unsuitable for various reasons. We settled on a short list of six to interview, none of whom was particularly strong on paper. In fact, none of them actually turned up! And it wasn't an admin cock up.

The other method of recruitment is to recruit people and train them in the forces. The problem here is that you will not get any use out of a student nurse until about four years after the day of recuitment. Nursing is one of the shorter periods of professional training. That doesn't take into account the attrition rate at university or the fact that the majority will do minimum return of service before buggering off into the NHS or private sector.

You mention the TA in your post. Why do you think that so many of them are being used on Ops, including formed Hospital Squadrons? And those civvy nurse are there to make up the numbers, not to give the rest of the staff more time off.

Each Corps and arm of service has it's own problems that will differ. I certainly agree that a trained and ready infantryman is not an easy asset to produce, but the path to boots on the ground is complex and varied one.
 
#18
Neuroleptic said:
Well, yes and no. Whilst you are right in principle, it's a little more complicated in practice. It is true that there is a pool of trained healthcare staff in the NHS and private sector, but this is not the same thing as getting them to join.
Indeed - so we should be looking at the widest possible pool of recruits? Rather than battening down to "Brits only"?

Secondly, the demographic pattern of nurse training recruitment in the NHS has changed in recent years. Whilst there are still a lot of 18 year olds who have just left sixth form, many students are now in their 30s or even 40s, married and with children i.e. not necessarily inclined to join the military. (A very small proportion of the 18 year olds have traditionally done so anyway.)
Okay - wasn't aware of that, thanks. And even if they wanted to join, we'd turn them away as being too old, wouldn't we?

We settled on a short list of six to interview, none of whom was particularly strong on paper. In fact, none of them actually turned up! And it wasn't an admin c*** up.
That must have been really irritating!

You mention the TA in your post. Why do you think that so many of them are being used on Ops, including formed Hospital Squadrons?
Because there aren't enough people in the Reg Army to get done all that is being demanded of it at the moment - at in total and in a large number of critical specialities and arms.

And those civvy nurse are there to make up the numbers, not to give the rest of the staff more time off.
I hope you didn't think I was actually suggesting this?

IIRC there was a particular shortage of A&E trauma nurses (forgive me if I haven't got the appropriate mil specialisation) because out-of-theatre experience was difficult for mil staff to gain. Once again - this may be b0llocks.
 
#19
Idrach said:
Neuroleptic said:
Well, yes and no. Whilst you are right in principle, it's a little more complicated in practice. It is true that there is a pool of trained healthcare staff in the NHS and private sector, but this is not the same thing as getting them to join.
Indeed - so we should be looking at the widest possible pool of recruits? Rather than battening down to "Brits only"?

I don't disagree with you. I'm unsure why they want to cap recruitment of non-UK people. A lot of the foreign healthcare professionals in the UK are on temporary contracts and would in the normal course of events be expected to return home on completion. Maybe it's politically embarrassing to go around poaching staff needed by third world and underdeveloped countries? Having said this, I'm assuming that the RLC is not looking for already qualified people so I could be wrong. Perhaps they're worried about recruiting people from countries we might want to invade one day!

Maybe someone at a more elevated pay grade can cast some light on the reasons.


Secondly, the demographic pattern of nurse training recruitment in the NHS has changed in recent years. Whilst there are still a lot of 18 year olds who have just left sixth form, many students are now in their 30s or even 40s, married and with children i.e. not necessarily inclined to join the military. (A very small proportion of the 18 year olds have traditionally done so anyway.)
Okay - wasn't aware of that, thanks. And even if they wanted to join, we'd turn them away as being too old, wouldn't we?

Yes, although they're unlikely to want to join anyway.

We settled on a short list of six to interview, none of whom was particularly strong on paper. In fact, none of them actually turned up! And it wasn't an admin c*** up.
That must have been really irritating!

I found it quite funny actually. Given the CVs, I'd suspected few of them would actually do so. The boss went loopy though. :D

You mention the TA in your post. Why do you think that so many of them are being used on Ops, including formed Hospital Squadrons?
Because there aren't enough people in the Reg Army to get done all that is being demanded of it at the moment - at in total and in a large number of critical specialities and arms.

True, but I am led to believe that the AMS makes greater use of the TA than any other branch of the armed forces.

And those civvy nurse are there to make up the numbers, not to give the rest of the staff more time off.
I hope you didn't think I was actually suggesting this?

Not having a go, but they are an indication of the seriousness of the problem, as well as a very expensive stop gap measure.

IIRC there was a particular shortage of A&E trauma nurses (forgive me if I haven't got the appropriate mil specialisation) because out-of-theatre experience was difficult for mil staff to gain. Once again - this may be b0llocks.

Not my area, but I believe that A & E and Intensive Care qualified nurses are in very short supply. Direct entry ones get golden handshakes. The general shortage of nurses means that it is difficult to release already serving staff to do the training without defaulting on the contracts with the NHS MDHUs (so I've been told)..

The thought occurs that the F & C personnel in the QARANC might be Health Care Assistants rather than qualified nurses (although that doesn't necessarily undermine the argument for trying to recruit foreign staff).
 
#20
Neuroleptic said:
I'm unsure why they want to cap recruitment of non-UK people. A lot of the foreign healthcare professionals in the UK are on temporary contracts and would in the normal course of events be expected to return home on completion. Maybe it's politically embarrassing to go around poaching staff needed by third world and underdeveloped countries? Having said this, I'm assuming that the RLC is not looking for already qualified people so I could be wrong. Perhaps they're worried about recruiting people from countries we might want to invade one day!
Are you having a laugh? Spelling your name gets you into our corps.
I think finally it begining to dawn on certain officers that some RLC units have 75% commonwealth privates most of whom require "special treatment" from CWI (no exercises/parades/outdoor PT/Guard duties) to DOMCOL leave to passport/immigration problems, These units do not function properly.
 

Similar threads


Top