Army to carry out armed rsponse in UK?

#1
Just heard this on BBC News; the idea has been put forward that it may be necessary for police to recruit soldiers on short-term contracts to carry out armed response duties.
Bad idea for two reasons.
1: We barely have enough squaddies to do our own job, never mind plods.
2: Police are trained entirely differently to squaddies. Any squaddie would have to be re-trained in police firearm procedures, use of force etc.
This may be the Decoy Principle; leak details of an idea so bad that your real proposal, which you reveal later. sounds much more reasonable.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#2
Interesting concept and certainly one which will put police noses out of joint. We may face a similar reaction like that we faced with the Fire Brigade.

Would we be scared to shoot however, having seen how the press were baying for the blood of that copper who shot the lad on the tube, or would we be too scared in case we faced the wrath of our politically driven hierarchy? No win situation?

If it happens, those who will be employed on such duties will be distrusted by one side and targets for the other. Glad it won't be me.
 
#3
Countdokku
It may just have been an idea thrown out to see what the 'general opinion was' ie; any serious political objections/military and moral objections to having the army do a civpol job.
 
#5
Biscuits_AB said:
Interesting concept and certainly one which will put police noses out of joint. We may face a similar reaction like that we faced with the Fire Brigade.

Would we be scared to shoot however, having seen how the press were baying for the blood of that copper who shot the lad on the tube, or would we be too scared in case we faced the wrath of our politically driven hierarchy? No win situation?

If it happens, those who will be employed on such duties will be distrusted by one side and targets for the other. Glad it won't be me.

Interesting thread, go to NI in 1969 to support the rozzers, get shafted, wait 30 odd years, leave the province, new threat pops up, support the mainland rozzers....etc etc...... isnt history strange?
 
#6
Usual commentary by stupid journalist who knows nothing about the police, the military, the law or the real world. Best ignored or treated with the derision it deserves.
 
#7
Hmmmm.... Warrior as an AR mechanism? Hey, why not use AI for crowd control....except at Milwall home games of course. Oh heck, link this to earlier reports of Army facilities and troops being offered to the film world and we can see ourselves becoming privatised and nice little earners for the Treasury. have to have a seriously efficient MIS though - or we might find that Country A had rented 4 Armd Bde to give State B a good shoe-ing, only to find that State B had been and hired out 7 Armd.........
 
#8
emptyeye said:
Biscuits_AB said:
Interesting concept and certainly one which will put police noses out of joint. We may face a similar reaction like that we faced with the Fire Brigade.

Would we be scared to shoot however, having seen how the press were baying for the blood of that copper who shot the lad on the tube, or would we be too scared in case we faced the wrath of our politically driven hierarchy? No win situation?

If it happens, those who will be employed on such duties will be distrusted by one side and targets for the other. Glad it won't be me.

Interesting thread, go to NI in 1969 to support the rozzers, get shafted, wait 30 odd years, leave the province, new threat pops up, support the mainland rozzers....etc etc...... isnt history strange?
Just wanted to add that I had a gun then too and wasnt scared to use it:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/19284/normal_belfasta~0.jpg
 
#9
countdokku said:
Just heard this on BBC News; the idea has been put forward that it may be necessary for police to recruit soldiers on short-term contracts to carry out armed response duties.
Bad idea for two reasons.
1: We barely have enough squaddies to do our own job, never mind plods.
2: Police are trained entirely differently to squaddies. Any squaddie would have to be re-trained in police firearm procedures, use of force etc.
This may be the Decoy Principle; leak details of an idea so bad that your real proposal, which you reveal later. sounds much more reasonable.

Squaddies leave all the time, what better way of employing some of them by using them in this way ? It's not as if the Civvy Bill would want thousands of us ?

Yes, the proposal being considered includes some re-training, not a big issue since we're already half-way there.

Isn't this idea from the Met ?

Sensible option in my opinion.
 
#10
rickshaw said:
Hmmmm.... Warrior as an AR mechanism? Hey, why not use AI for crowd control....except at Milwall home games of course. Oh heck, link this to earlier reports of Army facilities and troops being offered to the film world and we can see ourselves becoming privatised and nice little earners for the Treasury. have to have a seriously efficient MIS though - or we might find that Country A had rented 4 Armd Bde to give State B a good shoe-ing, only to find that State B had been and hired out 7 Armd.........
You've obviously read Catch 22 then! :D

Are they talking about using serving soldiers on secondment to the police while remaining officially employed by the army, serving soldiers taking a sabbatical or career break and serving as an armed policeman for the duration of their sabbatical, or departing soldiers being employed as policemen on termination of their military service? It seems to me that the distinction between these is quite significant to the chances of success.
 
#11
in principal sounds a very good idea. but armed troops on the streets always sounds a bit suspect to me. what that mean the Met or the gov setting up a "paramillitary" style wing to to the police force. i thought only south american juntas did that.
 
#12
Sniper 9, The French would be a trifle upset to be referred to as a South American junta...... CRS? Putting the troops onto the streets has always been the weapon of last resort in a liberal democracy......something or other street siege in about 1912, General Strike 1926.... prior to that, emotive words like "Peterloo" start getting bandied about.... mind you, if we are actively considering developing some nascent "Third Force", be they detached, seconded or borrowed from the Armed Forces, you might argue that we are no longer living in a liberal democracy.
With no coherent political opposition, we could be argued to be living in a single party state and thus don't have a viable form of democracy......... still, lots of employment opportunities for those who rather like strutting their stuff upon the domestic stage......and if we're worried about the Army's reputation now, watch out for freefall once we are used against the man on the Clapham omnibus (the non-back pack carrying, non-Brazilian sort that is....)
 
#13
Good point Mr D - and do you recall the air of concern at the time..... well before SRR..............and who is to say that any soldiers put onto the streets as AR teams will be used against "terrorists" and not against armed gangs, the odd poor demented soul who hasn't been swept into the AirSoft world or (heh, heh, heh) those whom the government determine to be anti-social and violent....such as any bunch of well lit up citizens who fancy a visit to Downing Street.......
 
#14
Historically, soldiers have provided armed support to the police as MACP- as in Northern Ireland. Berfore police forces were established the Yeomanry had a role to maintain public order.

What would the legal status be? In Northern Ireland there were rules of engagement as per the Yellow Card -and no powers of arrest. Get it wrong and you are with Pte Clegg in the dock. Would this ectend the implicit exemption offered to the Met's firearms squad? They may top the odd person but as long as they thought tne chairleg was a shotgun or the Brazilian is an arab no action will be taken.

The comment suggested soldiers on short term contracts with a minimum of police training. Isn't this just more employment opportunites for ex Special Forces via the Private Security contractors? Do we really want to import mercenaries to back up the police? Is it right that the Police save money by getting the MOD to pay to select and train people who can be trusted to use firearms?
 

cpunk

LE
Moderator
#15
Pteranadon said:
What would the legal status be? In Northern Ireland there were rules of engagement as per the Yellow Card -and no powers of arrest. Get it wrong and you are with Pte Clegg in the dock. Would this ectend the implicit exemption offered to the Met's firearms squad? They may top the odd person but as long as they thought tne chairleg was a shotgun or the Brazilian is an arab no action will be taken.
The police blerk I heard on the radio was talking about giving these 'soldiers' specialist training in lethal force law and a 'limited warrant' which presumably would give them certain police powers. It does beg a few questions of course: unless the law is radically changed, the decision to use lethal force will remain with the individual officer and I can imagine that 'human rights' lawyers would make hay with the idea of ex-army 'hit men' beng brought in to deal with firearms situations. I think it's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I can see it flying.
 
#16
This was from Mr Blair (the copper not the ********) who thought it might be a good idea, oh dear another grabbing straws solution not
 
#17
I'm sure Vegetius will have something to say about this when he reappears.

I'm sure the mention in the media is probably because it is quite a good talking point. I'm sure the government and HQ Met are at the same stage as we are, looking at the pros and cons of various different options and seeing if there is merit in any of them. I know they have struggled over the last few months with turning out enough armed police to cover the various different conferences & summits. They've racked up a huge overtime bill, and they just don't have enough armed policment to go round. There was, for example, the very odd happenings up in Scotland, where English/Welsh policemen with years of service had to be sworn in because their English/Welsh warrants aren't valid in Scotland!
 
#19
Still, it would be quite entertaining watching two up and bags of smoke next time there's a bank robbery...

"And when the suspect raised his sawn-off shotgun Lance-PC Smith, what were your next actions?"

" Well sir, I directed the gun group to lay down supressing fire, and then led the rest of the section in a frontal assault. upon reaching the counter behind which the suspect had hidden, I posted a grenade, and after it detonated, on my order Pte-PC Atkins leapt over the desk and emptied his rifle into the suspect, before bayonetting him."
 
#20
Gleaming! :D

Yeah, I could see that working. And imagine the potential responses to joyriders, burglers, rapists, vandals etc etc. It works doesn't it. Every potential criminal would be too scared to commit crime because of how much the shoeing would hurt. What's this? Fear of getting caught? Fear of punishment? I'm having a deep sense of deja-vous. :evil:
 

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